Sid Meier's Civilization V

Sid Meier's Civilization V

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Lickmajora Feb 14, 2018 @ 10:30am
5 WEAKEST Civs in your opinion?
in terms of overall weakness when compared to other civs that are deemed really strong, relatively speaking
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Showing 1-15 of 65 comments
Matthew Feb 14, 2018 @ 11:54am 
My own list in no particular order:

Byzantium: two classical-era military units which rarely get used and no bonuses to faith generation. On higher difficulties if you get beat out to religion, you are practically playing with zero bonuses.

Carthage: Again, two classical-era military units which rarely get used. The free harbor bonus can be nice, but that is all the Civ really has going for it. Mountain passing is a gimmick and not really used...

Iroquois: Contrary to popular belief, the longhouse can be worth, but it is map dependent. If you don't have a good forest location start, you actually lose production compared to a workshop. Swordsmen rarely get used, thus Mohawk rarely gets used. The no-iron requirement is pointless if you still need the iron to upgrade to longswords. City connection without roads is good against early raging barbarian spam, but not really used after that. In other words if you have a perfect forest start they can at best be "meh, just okay". Anything less than that and it gets bad.

Japan: Not that great. Zero is worthless, culture on fishing boats is kind of meh. Samurai are okay-ish with Bushido and double cover right out of the gate but... out of all the longsword/musket replacement Civs, I find this to be the weakest. Danes get sexy 3 movement longswords extremely early, France's culture is more reliable compared to fishing boats, 'Murica's bonuses tend to be overall more useful, etc.

Greece: Kind of mixed on this one. Again, two classical-era military units which rarely get used. Though the city-state decay bonus is rather good, it is difficult for me to place a lot of weight on it. City-state bonuses aren't particularly hard to keep and it doesn't really matter if you have 400 rep or 200 rep, an alliance is an alliance. In other words if you have the same number of alliances as a non-Greece Civ, Greece isn't really gaining any bonus over anything.


There is an obvious theme here. It is difficult to war early on in the classical era and profit. And if you do, you want useful units like horse archers and battering rams, not triremes.
Lickmajora Feb 14, 2018 @ 12:59pm 
took this from the whiteout mod makers page....yes, 4 of your picks had to be addressed.
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=271978016

I think Iroqouis would be a good play now..

Carthage: Still gets free harbours, and now 50% reduced naval maintenance cost. I decided to leave the UA passing through mountains in tact. With Dido's high naval flavour this will benefit Carthage nicely.

Iroquois: Simple mod from Krajzen's; the longhouse is now +5 production and then all the extra production from trees. Makes this UB really shine. The AI seems to shine with this civ and now with a less useless UB that's all I felt needed to be done here.

Byzantium: Byzantium Palace now grants +3 faith. Free Great Prophet appears at Theology.

Japan: I incorporated Homusubi's Japanese enhanced, with a minor change. The Dojo still gives +15% XP to Navy. Japan was a naval powerhouse in the 20th century and it seemed wrong to just totally take away from that. Dojo also gives +2 culture. I really like this mod and think it is a beautiful change to Japan. Big props to the author. Unlike Japan enhanced, Samurai remain at 21 strength.
Phryxo Feb 14, 2018 @ 1:08pm 
I'm actually kind of shocked that a guy with so much experience on the game rates Greece as one of the worst civs in the game. The hell?

Anyway, the first 3 civs you listed are indeed among the worst, no doubt; but Portugal, France and Indonesia are all worse civs than Japan.

Venice is a special case, but it is undoubtledly A LOT worse than Greece. Also, India.
JesseL Feb 14, 2018 @ 1:45pm 
Iroquois
Carthage
Brazil
France
Japan
Last edited by JesseL; Feb 14, 2018 @ 3:55pm
Cemetery Man Feb 14, 2018 @ 1:49pm 
France can be really good at Cultural Victory, the Danish and the Swedish are way worse.
Phryxo Feb 14, 2018 @ 2:12pm 
Originally posted by Cemetery Man:
France can be really good at Cultural Victory, the Danish and the Swedish are way worse.
France's bonuses don't really make it any easier to get a CV. And, please, the other statement is just wrong. Sweden are super strong, easily among the best civs (outside the super-op civs like Babylon, Korea, Arabia, etc) in the game. Denmark is a very decent domination civ (especially early domination), automatically making them a good civ overall.
Matthew Feb 14, 2018 @ 2:34pm 
Greece was the least likely I'd add to my list, but still I've never been overly impressed. If talking about the AI, it sucks at getting and securing city-state alliances even with a ridiculous bonus to gold income. Again, it doesn't matter if you have 400 rep or 200 rep, an alliance is an alliance. If you have the city-states anyway, Greece isn't offering anything.

Greece was far better in vanilla where you didn't have spies and easy-to-complete CS quests. Cavalry was far better, even classical-era horsemen. Greece used to be a rather good Civ, but it hasn't aged well at all.

About the only benefit to playing Greece at all is a measley amount of extra culture or faith when you tick a CS over early but don't have the gold income to keep it. Greece allows for the bonus to last a tad bit longer. at that stage in the game. But hell, talk about niche. That is like talking about Spain and starting near a natural wonder... great when it happens, but nobody rates Spain as anything but "situational". Sure, when all the stars align maybe you complete the perfect number of CS quests at the perfect time to secure a bunch of CS alliances earlier than you normally would... or maybe you don't. And if you don't, welp, you are a classical-era Civ with ♥♥♥♥ UU's and no other bonuses.
Cemetery Man Feb 14, 2018 @ 2:58pm 
Originally posted by Phryxo:
France's bonuses don't really make it any easier to get a CV.
Double theme bonuses in Capital and the culture from the Chateau both help produce a lot more tourism in the late game.
Lickmajora Feb 14, 2018 @ 3:24pm 
Originally posted by Phryxo:
I'm actually kind of shocked that a guy with so much experience on the game rates Greece as one of the worst civs in the game. The hell?

Anyway, the first 3 civs you listed are indeed among the worst, no doubt; but Portugal, France and Indonesia are all worse civs than Japan.

Venice is a special case, but it is undoubtledly A LOT worse than Greece. Also, India.


Seriously, why is France bad??? they get triple theming bonus when stacked with Aesthetics....., TRIPLE is a lot.... they just gotta hustle for the Great Work Slot wonders and make sure they are in the capital.... they are BAD AT EVERYTHING save Culture, is that what you mean?
Last edited by Lickmajora; Feb 14, 2018 @ 3:25pm
Phryxo Feb 14, 2018 @ 3:36pm 
@Matthew You've told me in the past that you don't play on high difficulties, I can tell you, man, Greece is one of the worst (if not the worst!) AIs to play against on Deity. Alex is SO annoying you would hardlty be telling me their bonuses aren't significant as an AI. Now, about playing as Alex, well, I don't understand how you can downplay their CS bonuses! The amount of culture, food and - hell - even units you get from them just cannot be overstated. And on top of that they have 2 early UUs, one of which is very, very good. I'd say the are hardly among the worst civs in the game.

Originally posted by Cemetery Man:
Originally posted by Phryxo:
France's bonuses don't really make it any easier to get a CV.
Double theme bonuses in Capital and the culture from the Chateau both help produce a lot more tourism in the late game.
This translates to not very much in reality, as much as it may seem on paper. Chateuxs amount to a bit more tourism in the very late game, but you could've used farms to grow your cities bigger from way earlier on and thus, reach the key techs faster. The cap bionus is really nothing to write home about, I have played a lot of CVs and France is not stronger in regards to getting faster CVs.
Phryxo Feb 14, 2018 @ 3:57pm 
Originally posted by Lickmajora:
Seriously, why is France bad??? they get triple theming bonus when stacked with Aesthetics....., TRIPLE is a lot.... they just gotta hustle for the Great Work Slot wonders and make sure they are in the capital.... they are BAD AT EVERYTHING save Culture, is that what you mean?
Lack of diversity is not helping them, that's for sure. And when the bonuses for their preferred VC aren't really that impressive, well.... I mean look at Brazil's bonuses as a comparison! France's bonus only works in the capital, so how much tourism does this actually amount to? You are going to hoard Uffizi, Louvre, Sistine, Globe, Broadway (although that's way easier) in one city. You could probably do that on King or lower rather easily, but what happens when you actually have some competition for these wonders on higher difficulties? What if you are beaten to Louvre? Will you reload and reload until you get it? I've gather (from other posts) that you do do that, but what if you don't want to rig the game for every minute detail in order to win? You don't need the Louvre for a CV and if you get it, you can forgo +8 tpt.
safak Feb 14, 2018 @ 4:07pm 
im going down the list doing a epic game with each civ.to get to know them all first hand. just did hiawatha today..and i think he is the worst for me so far.

ua is wonky, though it saves a little money and time building city connections early on.
underwhelming and then you have to move tile by tile later or it will take you 3 turns to go to a city that would take you 1 turn with proper rails.

mohawk warrior, i mean its ok for defense if peopel come attack you while you sit in a forest. you don't need iron is the special .. but i rarely have played a game where i don't have enugh iron to make the few swordsmen i need, or you can just trade any civ a lux for 45 turns for 5 more iron..
i think on a packed map it would be better to take someone out early but give me a battering ram anyday
.
building is meh though i had a good layout and made better use of it than most would be able to on your average game(as in, one you don't restart 10 times like i do lol).

Matthew Feb 14, 2018 @ 4:08pm 
Originally posted by Phryxo:
@Matthew You've told me in the past that you don't play on high difficulties,

You must have me confused with someone else.

And if you are talking Deity, Deity AI's get pikes out before you are realistically going to get any horsemen or many hoplites on the field. Greece's UU's are obsolete before they can even be used. And no, you aren't using spears and horsemen over comp bows on Deity.

No, Greece isn't the worse Civ in the game but I'd take well over 2/3'rds of the other Civs in its place. If you don't want to rank it on the bottom 5, okay, but you are going to have a difficult time arguing they are anywhere in the top half which is bloated with actual good Civs.

Edit: I should probably state that I warmonger a lot, and those games makes getting CS alliances easy compared to peaceful games. For the third time: It doesn't matter how much rep you have with a CS, an alliance is an alliance. I could play Greece and have 400 rep with a CS, or I could play an actual good Civ with 200 rep, still have the alliance, and actual good bonuses on my Civ.
Last edited by Matthew; Feb 14, 2018 @ 4:13pm
Phryxo Feb 14, 2018 @ 4:31pm 
Oh, sorry about the confusion in that case. And I never meant to make them out to be a top civ by any means, just saying they're definitely not among the worst. :)

I have used comp bows and horsemen on Deity and, well, if I have a UU that is stronger, faster and with GG I horsemen... all the more reason to use them! I mean, crossbows and knights are the way to go in Medieval but you get these guys much earlier on than knights, so it's a pretty sweet deal in my book. What I mean in regards to Hoplites is that you can in many, many games (I'm sure this has happened to youi) get a spearman out of an ruin super, super early, so whether it's for defense, offense (surviving more City attacks and whatnot), or tributing (no as relevant on Deity, but still), Hoplites aren't the worst, you know.
Laluzi Feb 14, 2018 @ 5:37pm 
In my experience?

Byzantium: The extra belief for Byzantium is fantastic. Getting two pantheon beliefs can be incredibly useful. Grab one that gives faith from tiles and another that gives culture, and hoo boy. However... Byzantium really needs a unique building. Badly. It can't generate faith very fast - other civs are likely to beat you to choosing what beliefs you can get. Neither of its UUs come at a time when war is very feasible, especially when it's not meant to be played as a warlike civ. You might use them for defense for a little while. Or maybe if they had bonuses that remained when they were upgraded, like the Jaguar or Maori Warrior, they'd be worth building. But ultimately, you end up playing a civ that has no UA or UUs.

The Ottomans: Kind of a weird one. I'll give them this much - Janisaries are a very good unit. That's basically it for them, though. (I don't care how fast a Sipahi can move. Lancers are garbage and unique lancers are still garbage.) It's strange. They have two land UUs and a UA that centers around naval domination. In theory this should make them well-rounded, but it just doesn't seem to complement itself well. Either a game will be based on naval warfare and you get to use the UA without any special naval units, or you have a land map and your UA is useless. As a general rule, I don't like civs that have no unique buildings and a UA that's only useful for war. For instance, at least Songhai can make tons of early cash by hunting barbarians. And Germany's another two-UU military UA civ (I play G&K, I think that changes in BNW), but for them it synergizes extremely well. They're land-focused.

The Iroquois: They've got a good early-game start with quick exploration and free roads, but holy crap the longhouse. Workshops are so important. By losing the percentage, the losses scale worse as the game continues. Also, Mohawk Warriors are very good units, but it's too early to wage wars of conquest with them, and longswordmen guarantee you will need that iron. The fact that they keep their promotions does make them worth spamming for later, granted... but I cannot get over the longhouse. Why would you do that. (I may be injecting my own playstyle a bit too hard here - I'm inclined to chop most forests. Wonder rushing and city growth. So I don't get much benefit by the time I'm done.)

Carthage: Free harbors is pretty nice on an archipelago or fractal map, but that's all they they've got going for them. Two very early game UUs - the quinquereme is worse than useless, nobody naval battles at that stage and at least dromons can hit land units, and the elephant just doesn't come at a good time. If it were a Knight replacement, it would have more potential.

Sweden: I love playing with Sweden in the game, but playing as them? Neither of their UUs are anything special. March is nice. That's it. I could get March on a unit off the bat with Alhambra and Brandenburg in one city, which I often do. And it is an extremely rare situation where I'd ever want to gift a Great Person instead of using it - maybe spare admirals, or generals when there's no territory I want to steal. Fast great general movement? Mongolia does it better and without any situational requirement. Since making friends with multiple AIs is near impossible by the time the bonuses could ever meaningfully kick in (Nx10% is not much to 2 per turn, and you're not going to get more than 10% by the time you're at 20), it mostly comes off as playing a civ without a UA.

I should probably toss Denmark an honorable mention, but I've already got my five.


Edit: Regarding Greece - I think they're a pretty great civ for one specific reason; it's possible to get zero influence decay with them. Just make sure to found a religion (maintaining it won't be a problem if you have a religious city-state nearby.) Combine that with Patronage and all of the city states in your immediate area (if you're slow with religion) or on your continent (if you're proactive) will never lose influence with you until spies come into play. That's incredibly powerful; it's the only civ that can sit back and ignore the effort that comes with maintaining city-state alliances. And during the medieval/renaissance era, when you'll have gotten the requirements for no decay - the gold you'd have to spend on forming and maintaining alliances is a significant amount. Not having to pay those fees, and casually wrangling every city-state around you with a few barb camps and wonders, is more than enough to make up for the two early and non-upgrading UUs.
Last edited by Laluzi; Feb 14, 2018 @ 5:56pm
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Date Posted: Feb 14, 2018 @ 10:30am
Posts: 65