Thread for perk rankings discussion for my guide

[Shrinkshooter]

I made a Noita guide (found here) with two sections, general tips and tricks, and then perks and what I rate them. This thread is for anyone who reads the guide and thinks that a particular perk's ranking just isn't "right" or fair, and to state what it should be and make their case for why. If you read the guide and want to add tips or tricks that I haven't mentioned, please comment on the guide directly; this thread is more for debate over whether a certain perk is good or bad.

Thanks in advance.

[Botji]

Imo is your perk list all over the place, Faster movement is A grade? Electric immunity D? Edit wands isnt SS++++++?

I havent read the guide itself but your weird way of ranking perks makes it seem like you dont really know how they work or what they enable you to do :/

Faster movement is a utility or QoL perk, unless you are literally a god already or only have truly bad or detrimental perks to pick from it should be near the bottom of the list of things you pick.

Electric spells are probably the most singular powerful spells in the game that you can use without charges. The electric modifier is probably the most powerful modifier in the game but if you use any of them you risk killing yourself on metals, in liquids or even just on the edge of AOE damage since it will stun you.

A perk that 'unlock' these should be worth a lot. Explosion immunity is also wanted but that only 'unlocks' the ability to use the explosive ones in your own face which shouldnt be a desired range in the first place. The perk is worth taking even if you just limit yourself to the electric modifer until/if you get Explosion immunity because thats how good the electric modifier is.

Homing shot is also ranked too low, it should be S tier since it lets you do amazing things with formation modifiers and stationary spells. Put a trigger spell, bunch of damage modifiers, formation/multicast and whatever spells you want = fire anywhere and clear the screen.

I dont care enough to go through them all but there are a bunch more that are weirdly placed, either high or low for what they do(Melee immunity negates quite a few enemies entirely.. its the Melee equivalent of Permanent shield/Repulsion if these 2 made it impossible to be hit by projectiles, how is that not A tier? Extra perk and Concentrated spells should not be A tier, there are lots of perks you would pick before these if they were available.. like Melee Immunity etc etc.).


TL;DR: The perk list is weirdly ranked, as if you would have a hard time picking a perk between:

Edit wands, Faster movement, Extra perk and Concentrated spells.

If you dont think Edit wands is a instant pick 25/10 times im not sure what kind of game you are playing but its not this one. It would easily beat the S tier perks on the list as well, only Perk lottery might win because so far it seems it is 100% chance you get to pick again when you take it or im just really lucky when I find it which means you would get both Perk lottery AND Edit wands. If I had to pick one, I would still pick Edit wands since its a run winning perk.

[Shrinkshooter]

Half of your comments are things to which I already had responses in the description of why I put the perks where they are. I'll try to be short in addressing your concerns, but I'd suggest reading what I wrote about those things first before saying something I've already provided an argument for/against.

1. Faster movement could be lower, but it's incredibly helpful for dodging and juking things, even in tight spaces. A Rank may be a bit high for it, but it certainly helps your survivability if you're not dumb with it.

2. Ranking electric perks poorly isn't a commentary on how bad or good electric spells are. You don't need electric perks to use electric spells, you need explosive immunity. 99 times out of 100 if you're wacking your healthbar with a ton of damage by using an electric spell, it isn't the electricity that's doing you in, it's the explosion. And you don't need any immunity to use lightning bolts, as I mentioned in the guide, those spells are god tier.

3. I explained why I put homing shots where it is, but I might be convinced to put it higher. I don't think it's nearly as good as people claim it is.

4. I think Melee Immunity is great. Did you see the other guide? I didn't know there was another perk ratings guide until after I published mine (I haven't looked at any guides other than the map when I was a newer player). That one ranks melee immunity really low. I love melee immunity but even then I thought maybe I was putting it too high.

5. Edit wands isn't really a big deal if you're an experienced player who goes in and out of the Holy Mountain a hundred times a run. It's a perk of convenience at that point, unless 1) you're out roaming and aren't anywhere near a Mountain or 2) you're hot swapping spells in the middle of battle. A is still a high rank, but if you think it's S just because you can't get back into the Holy Mountain, I'm not the inexperienced player here. Now granted, #2 can be pretty powerful if you have the right spells and the right wands on which to use them, but very few people are going to be changing up their builds on the fly with spells they're keeping, Edit Wands is more for building your wands as you progress until you have something amazing. If you want to save the perk slot, like I do, then you just spend the extra time going back to the Mountain.

[Metalliferous]

Edit wands is probably the best extended run perk in the game hands down

[manumk.097]

Pretty accurate tier list, imo.These are mostly situational, but I think you could add up a little commentary on some perk combos: I could see homing shot ranked higher depending on your spells and previous perks, especially if you like building wand around bouncing, slow or static ones. I would not rank revenge explosion much higher either, with one excepcion: combined with glass canon, which solves the lack of range and pretty much cleans up your screen from enemies. The same goes to immunity explosion: combined with glass canon, allows you to clear a level using 3-4 bombs.

Overall, I agree with pretty much everytihng

[IchigoMait]

Movement, Homing and Edit Spells are just convience perks, it depends how you play.
If you're crap at dodging stuff with your base movement, then Movement speed will make you better at it, the person who is good at it, will be even better though, but he might think that they can do without it and use something that's more useful for them.
Homing is useful if you don't aim, use stationaries or don't use bounce spells or don't fill the entire screen with a spell combo, it's just a convenice otherwise, and can be annoying at some times when you like to aim.
Edit spells is the best thing to have if you like exploring and gathering all wands and spells in the entire are from left to right, before progressing down. If you don't have the patience and make do with your 4 slots and only go to edit in the "safe" area, then yeah Edit spells is pointless.

In the end those 3 things and many others are situational. There isn't really any point with the ranking system of the perks.
Unless you do it properly and do at least two ranks for each perk depending on the situation, where it might be good, and when not and a rank specifically for each of them. Or remove ranks and just do the good and bad points.

[manumk.097]

Originally posted by IchigoMait:

Movement, Homing and Edit Spells are just convience perks, it depends how you play.
If you're crap at dodging stuff with your base movement, then Movement speed will make you better at it, the person who is good at it, will be even better though, but he might think that they can do without it and use something that's more useful for them.
Homing is useful if you don't aim, use stationaries or don't use bounce spells or don't fill the entire screen with a spell combo, it's just a convenice otherwise, and can be annoying at some times when you like to aim.
Edit spells is the best thing to have if you like exploring and gathering all wands and spells in the entire are from left to right, before progressing down. If you don't have the patience and make do with your 4 slots and only go to edit in the "safe" area, then yeah Edit spells is pointless.

In the end those 3 things and many others are situational. There isn't really any point with the ranking system of the perks.
Unless you do it properly and do at least two ranks for each perk depending on the situation, where it might be good, and when not and a rank specifically for each of them. Or remove ranks and just do the good and bad points.

However, it is true some perks are really useful every run, and fit almost any playstyle. But I could see a "build" discusion being quite relevant. Most of the times, you are not going to be able to choose your perks or spells properly. So being able to adapt is needed.

To continúe with the perk discussion: New game+ has shown to me how important melee inmmunity can be. I would rank it higher for sure, at the level of fire inmmunity right now, as it is mandatory for "im fast as fk" runs. Yesterday I was able to beat the mode with just a digging Bolt, repeeling field and melee inmmunity.