Some POST GAME thoughts *******SPOILERS*****

[Dampback]

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2392380012

Hi I beat your game ww0000tt. Just thought I'd leave how I felt about some things. so you could consider (or not) anything for the second one. This isn't really meant to be a hate critique, as I did enjoy the game.

First off, enemies are annoying. I know it is not supposed to be the focus, but it was not until the 2 right before the final boss I felt threatened, I had no incentive to kill, until the end when I needed coins. They were just noisy and got in the way of my thinking. I did enjoy both bosses, especially since it wasn't really combat focused. even so I would have liked to see more mini bosses such as RattleHAG that used puzzle mechanics, and even adding a bit of real combat to the last one would have been nice.

A boss guarding each macguffin (classic move) would have been nice.

OR you could have A boss in each area (path to blue, path to red, volcano) and not have them blocking anything important, so you can progress through the story without beating them. But they of course need to be defeated eventually, as they guard something useful. Let's say you did the second way, maybe have to defeat Boss A to be unlock something to be able to beat Boss B? and so forth, keeping in mind they do not guard the main progression.

Spamming the sword wasn't very fun. But i suppose it's needed if you get over run. I would have liked to see sword combos. Maybe holding the force cube (before actually spawning it) and smacking it with the sword to turn it into a projectile would have been nice, not being applicable to purple buttons of course.
I enjoyed all the guns. maybe 1 additional gun like the red one. But anymore would be tedious.

However I'm not sure if in-depth combat is what this game needed.

No enemies could be boring. But could be countered with more complicated puzzles. But would that make the game less enjoyable? It's hard to say. I wish some of the puzzles were more complicated. But some were also so simple and I was overthinking them, or not exploring enough. The NPC hints were good I felt. even just the "you have/dont have everything you need" guy.

Music... other than the title...(it sounds too close to Zelda) I enjoyed. (Good Job on the credits!!) The purple crystal was super peaceful. However, I had to have the SFX down to 45 to hear any of it.. I suppose that is what slider options are for

Exploration was AWESOME, I always felt super accomplished getting to these high places. and I felt this was what I enjoyed most. I managed to do all this though without happiness (I got that at the last 5 chests) and the last remaining ones were the one's under ground. Happiness was great to get towards the end to make it faster to travel. But it also kind of diminished a lot of the joy I received from exploring (like the top of the sword, or the blue pipe adventurer) it just felt like "oh I could have just jumped" I think this is pretty balanced by being such a late game thing. But definitely bitter-sweet.



A way to slow down the 1.5 speed would have been nice. Like a toggle sprint button.

To be honest combat was my main complaint. I really enjoyed a lot of the game.

[DavidM]

Thanks for the feedback!

So for combat to be better, enemies should be more threatening?
Of course, enemies should not get in the way when you try to solve puzzles.

There is one thing I don't fully understand yet in the combat-debate around Supraland. In other games when you try to get from one side of the map to the other, you have to get past lots of enemies and it may be very hard and dangerous, but there it's not called annoying. In Supraland it is offen called annoying, because they are easier to beat. What is the difference? The lack of consequences? But they would make it even more annoying ;)
Would appreciate lots of points of views on that.

[Dampback]

You make it sound like you want better combat lol. Most enemies appear to be just there, and while that may be normal, as you pointed out with other games, it seems a lot of the enemies were weak, but large in number (especially after ignoring them for too long). By the time you are upgraded, they just become pests. Maybe as the character gets stronger, have enemies come in less numbers but stronger and more strategic? You could even blend some of it together, making 2 squads of weaklings appear with 1 squad of flyers, and 1 tough enemy?

[Dampback]

Maybe the upgrades were to powerful

[DavidM]

Yeah, but my question is if they were less annoying, if they were more annoying/harder to beat ;)
I hope you understand what's confusing about it to me.

[Ryan Fenton]

There's no one way for fights to be 'better'.

Me - I like essentially 1-second combats, so the current model is fine with me.

Enemies are light distraction between the puzzles - and that's cool.

Others prefer the illusion of a mind in their enemies.

But as you can imagine - if you earnestly do that, then a lot of folks will be annoyed at having to take a long time ferreting out enemies using guerrilla tactics... and your game effectively becomes a combat game.

It's like how Serious Sam doesn't have to be Dark Souls - the very light aspect of the combat in Serious Sam is honestly important to its flow.

And really - it's the fun you want to create that is the best fun.

The current enemies are skeleton themed - and run like slightly clever zombies in a kids imagination. That works for the focus and the theme.

[Ryan Fenton]

Also, to make combat like games specialized for that takes a lot of specialized structures and time fine-tuning those things.

Lots of pathing logic, stuff put into the levels for enemies to be able to react to positions of stuff, lots of time writing and maintaining state machines... then lots of effort effectively painting over that state machine so it looks 'natural'.

All to make a system that is intentionally not perfect in a way that people can enjoy, in a way you can't really know is right until you've essentially completed 90% of it, then have to cycle and repeat until it 'feels' right.

If it's not your focus, it might not be the best time investment for a small team.

I think it's why a lot of folks made zombie games a few years back - it's a lot more time-efficient to make a swarm that's SUPPOSED to be dumb, and put effort the world itself. Then you can focus on making culling that swarm fun, rather than complex for most of your time.

[DavidM]

We'll talk again after Six Inches Under, which is the next step in terms of combat for us.

[paulaus333]

My thoughts on combat:

I enjoyed the Rattlehag fight. The other enemies annoyed me at times, only through: (1) sheer numbers in some places towards the mid-to-late game, and (2) the fact that they respawn when you revisit after a time. Revisiting usually occurs when you travel old paths to come back to an area to *solve a puzzle* that was locked or too hard before. Decreasing the respawning rate/frequency was a great idea!

If the enemies had been dark souls difficulty and they respawned, they would have been even MORE annoying. So, the issue IMO is not related to the enemy complexity or difficulty. Smarter enemies and prolonged battles -> eliminate respawning altogether outside of a dedicated combat game. I want to solve puzzles, not fight forever in a game like this. :)

Originally posted by "Dampback":

By the time you are upgraded, they just become pests.

[HelgiRalfarsson]

I love Supraland (I 100%'ed both the base game and DLC), but found most of the enemies in the base game really annoying. The reason I did was because they relentlessly respawn. This game is at its best as a puzzle and exploration game and those critters take you out of that loop really quickly. I like that you can deal with them respawning by destroying their respawn objects, but the areas still tend to get reinfected with bigger bad guys that also have their own respawn objects so you're constantly fighting hordes of enemies that take you away from solving puzzles and exploring until the very end of the game. I thought the DLC improved upon the combat significantly.

I think retaining the combat could be great (and even be fun) if enemies simply stopped respawning and areas could be "cleared" allowing the player to interact with the environment and solve the puzzles at peace. Ultimately, though, I put up with how annoying the fights were because the puzzles and exploration were so fun in this game that I still give it a solid 9 and would gladly buy further DLC and more sequels. Seriously, this game was a ton of fun.

[mapron]

Yeah, about dealing with respawns. I feel like maybe this tools to shut graves should be available a bit earlier... Like, I have ability to shut volcanoes and graves when I already have weapon combo that almost oneshot everything.
And second, I felt a bit disappointed there are plenty areas with constant respawn anyway. Ok, football field is whatever (for farming/practicing), but in other places, especially redville entrance area (hub) - right, that's only place I felt super annoyed by clearing things.

Again, I agree Supraland is already almost perfect, and I just nitpicking, after reading this topic.

[Jagulars]

Annoyance boils down to lack of respect for the enemies. There are many ways to raise the respect players feel for the enemies, most common of which is brutality of them. People respect what they fear. Currently, there's not much to fear about the enemies.

Fear, however, is not the only reason to respect an adversary. A good challenge is also respect-worthy. Gatekeeping of something of value that the player does not feel entitled to, is great for raising respect.

[DavidM]

Can very hard and punishing enemies also be annoying?

[Jagulars]

They can, but usually it means the player feels entitled, that they should already be past them, that they should not need to defeat them, but the game is stupid is and is forcing them. This kind of entitlement is often born from first acclimating the player to easiness and then ramping up the difficulty.

[Jagulars]

I think this kind of game could benefit from Shadow of the Colossus-type of combat. A hand-full of well-designed fights with puzzle elements.

[HelgiRalfarsson]

I agree with Jagulars completely. If the enemies are incorporated into puzzles or if it's clear that once you initially clear out an area you won't have to face respawned hordes, they would go from being annoying to fun. The DLC did this and had some great enemy fights--even the huge wave battle was fun because it was a problem to be solved.

Can't wait to play Supraland 2.