DOOM Eternal

DOOM Eternal

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homosex K19191 20 ABR 2020 a las 23:58
What exactly is this Argenta thing???
Are they human?
I don't know, the Codex of The Icon of Sin says the Betrayer's son was resurrected but "not as human".
So the Argenta is another *human race* originated from another planet far away from Earth?
Última edición por homosex K19191; 20 ABR 2020 a las 23:58
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Mostrando 1-15 de 22 comentarios
RF7 21 ABR 2020 a las 2:09 
I think they're the people who originally lived in Argent D'Nur
homosex K19191 21 ABR 2020 a las 5:48 
Publicado originalmente por RetroFlame77:
I think they're the people who originally lived in Argent D'Nur
So... they should be considered human beings instead of an entirely different alien race (such as Maykrs)?
Vathek1 21 ABR 2020 a las 5:55 
Based on the look of the Betrayer and King Novik, they are clearly humanoid, although they certainly seem a lot bulkier/more muscular than your average H. sapiens.
homosex K19191 21 ABR 2020 a las 7:48 
Publicado originalmente por Vathek1:
Based on the look of the Betrayer and King Novik, they are clearly humanoid, although they certainly seem a lot bulkier/more muscular than your average H. sapiens.
hmm... yeah, but the priests look kinda soy though
Frost Spectre 21 ABR 2020 a las 7:56 
Dunno, some of the codex say about the Argenta making a outpost on earth and mars in the far history, so they're possibly the species from which humans descended in this Universe of Doom.
Noname 21 ABR 2020 a las 9:04 
Sometimes you don't understand on what planet you are
Gradiator was on Argent D'Nur?
But Spider Mastermind was on Argent D'Nur too
Frost Spectre 21 ABR 2020 a las 9:45 
Publicado originalmente por Noname:
Sometimes you don't understand on what planet you are
Gradiator was on Argent D'Nur?
But Spider Mastermind was on Argent D'Nur too
Gladiator was on Sentinel Prime, not Argent D'Nur. Sentinel Prime is the last bastion of the Argenta/Sentinels
Vesperas 21 ABR 2020 a las 10:29 
They're intended to be an ancient race from which humanity on Earth is descended. They were introduced in Quake and a fair amount of the lore surrounding them was detailed in Doom 3. However, it's also inconsistent with the source material from which it is inspired. Whether due to unfamiliarity on the part of Eternal's writers or intentionally done as a retcon to make up a Doom universe, I couldn't say--it's probably a bit of both.

Ultimately, seeing as Eternal isn't even consistent with itself, much less Doom 2016 or the games from which it is drawing from (Doom/Quake), it's probably best not to think about.
Peelsepuuppi 21 ABR 2020 a las 10:33 
Publicado originalmente por Vesperas:
They're intended to be an ancient race from which humanity on Earth is descended. They were introduced in Quake and a fair amount of the lore surrounding them was detailed in Doom 3. However, it's also inconsistent with the source material from which it is inspired. Whether due to unfamiliarity on the part of Eternal's writers or intentionally done as a retcon to make up a Doom universe, I couldn't say--it's probably a bit of both.

Ultimately, seeing as Eternal isn't even consistent with itself, much less Doom 2016 or the games from which it is drawing from (Doom/Quake), it's probably best not to think about.

Just Curious. Where does Eternal Contradict itself?
Vathek1 21 ABR 2020 a las 12:28 
One small point where it contradicts Doom 2016 (its direct predecessor) is regarding the origin of the Spectre demons. In Doom 2016, the Spectres resulted from genetic manipulation of the Pinkies (merging their DNA with genetic material from Cacodemons, if I recall correctly). In Doom Eternal, it claims the Spectres were the result of some arcane ritual that the higher-ups in hell weren't too pleased about.

I'd also say that Doom Eternal contradicts itself regarding exactly what the demons are. If they are actually formed from corrupted humans/former residents of Argent D'nur, then they are not really demons. If they have DNA that can be manipulated by human science, then they aren't demons either since creatures that are manifestations of hell energy technically shouldn't have DNA... or be vulnerable to mortal weaponry either. (Only things like Crucible blades and perhaps the BFG and Unmakyr should be able to hurt the demons, but I'm definitely reading too much into this.)
Vesperas 22 ABR 2020 a las 10:14 
Publicado originalmente por ToveriJuri:
Just Curious. Where does Eternal Contradict itself?

The whole game is a contradiction, especially to the previous games. The only way it is remotely possible is if you buy into the endless dimension/timeline garbage. If so, it had might as well not have a story or lore at all, since everything and anything is simultaneously possible and considered 100% game canon, including one where the Doom Marine ceases to exist. To start with:

In the "Return of Dr. Samuel Hayden" lore entries, it states Samuel Hayden returned to Earth with the crucible and helped solve the energy crisis due to the loss of the argent tower on Mars. This would be consistent with Doom 2016.

However, in several other entries, it claims Hell was already invading Earth before Samuel Hayden returned.

---

It states the ARC had already been formed to battle the demons, Samuel used his position as the leader of the UAC to install powerful AI at their installations and build weapons in support of the ARC resistance, and sent the BFG 9000 back to Phobos to power the BFG 10K.

It also states that the UAC had already fallen under the influence of Ranak, whom had worked with Olivia Pierce on Mars, and that he had used his role as their leader to begin the hell invasion on Earth.

---

It claims that the demons are formed from the soulless refuse from the creation of hell power, but offers no explanation for how the demons came to be in the first place. It basically implies that either the demons or hell power magically appeared out of thin air--effectively, it's a chicken or the egg scenario.

---

It is stated that no living being may cross to Urdak. The one and only (highly convenient) exception is by which the Doom Marine uses to reach it, which is further explained as only being possible due to the Praetor suit which is of Maykr origin. It explicitly states that the Khan Maykr cannot reach hell nor can hell reach Urdak, yet the Icon of Sin is somehow present in Urdak, and proceeds to leave on will.

---

It claims the Elemental Wraiths are needed to create Argent Energy (being a mixture of wraith essence and hell energy) but then proceeds to state that they can produce pure Argent Energy at Nekroval without the wraiths somehow.

---

Neither Samuel Hayden (Samur Maykr) nor VEGA's story/history make any sense whatsoever and they're both entirely inconsistent with how they're portrayed in Doom 2016.

---

It claims that the arachnotron was built by UAC cultists using the remains of the "original" spider mastermind but doesn't specify which spider mastermind. It seems unlikely it was Olivia Pierce due to the (near) impossible timing, and if using the Spider Mastermind from Doom, it fails to mention that the arachnotron had already existed as well in Doom II: Hell on Earth.

Additionally, it also proceeds to drastically retcon and change the history surrounding the cyberdemon, presumably in order to remain consistent with Doom 2016 for no apparent reason seeing as it's highly inconsistent throughout elsewhere, which also leaves doubt as to what it is actually referencing.

---

It claims that the Unmaykr/Unmaker is of Maykr design and is powered with Argent Energy but states in the History of the Sentinel lore that the Khan Maykr did not know of hell prior of the arrival of the Doom Marine. This implies Argent Energy had not yet been created or discovered, and the Doom Marine had already (impossibly) discovered the Unmaker in Doom 64, prior to him ever having met the Khan Maykr.

---

It claims that the Icon of Sin was created through the heart of Valen's son, and it was his betrayal which led to the defeat and imprisonment of the wraiths, yet the Doom Marine had already battled the Icon of Sin before ever stepping foot on Argenta to begin with.

Laughably, it proceeds to claim that the Mancubus seen in Eternal features an even older design with man-made modifications, implying that Doom II: Hell on Earth is canon (which is where it was initially introduced) and thus, the Icon of Sin from Doom II is as well, which negates the lore entry behind the Icon of Sin entirely.

---

Eternal fails to mention the argent fracture at all, despite referencing the argent tower. It also references the lost city of Hebeth or "city of the damned" from Quake, yet fails to mention that the knights (now called the sentinels) and death knights (now called the marauders) had already been conquered by hell and wiped out completely.

This is referenced extensively in Doom 3 (where the argent fracture came from in the first place) and Quake.

---

Eternal fails to mention the Vadrigar or the Doom Marine's time spent in the Arena Eternal in Quake 3, despite referencing him earning his freedom in the Arena Eternal. This especially makes little sense.

---

Eternal fails to mention how the Doom Marine became trapped. Doom 2016 implies he was trapped in the Kadingir Sanctum with a lure devised by the hell priests of the nine circles of hell (otherwise known as the Blood Keep, following his decision to remain in hell forever in Doom 64) but Eternal claims he was sent to siege Nekroval while Valen betrayed the sentinels, and the Doom Marine continued to battle on with his fate unknown.

---

Eternal also depicts him being given his armor by Samuel Hayden (aka the seraphim) prior to somehow stealing VEGA (father) with the God-Machine. However, Doom 2016 states he was given his armor by the betrayer (Valen) and the seraphim instead only blessed him with terrible power and speed.

---

The Doom Marine, having acquired the Praetor Suit, battled and slayed the titan on Taras Nabad with his crucible. Eternal states only the Doom Marine had ever had the crucible and he left it within the titan to ensure it would never rise again. However, it also features the hell crucible seen in Doom 2016 but makes no effort to explain how it came to be. It is a central and key part of the plot in both games and yet it has no explanation.

---

Doom 2016 states that the city of Argent fell to the power of hell and was fully absorbed into hell but Doom Eternal states that the Elemental Wraiths were subdued, secretly taken from Exultia and brought into hell while the sentinels battled the demons in hell.

---

Doom 64 was provided a "Lost Levels" episode to supposedly bridge the story-line from Doom 64 to Doom 2016, while ignoring that the bridge contradicts Doom 64 itself (which is entirely absurd to even think about), and then Doom Eternal proceeds to both retcon and ignore different pieces of lore that Doom 64 introduced.

Explained another way, the actual plot of Doom 64 is negated by the "Lost Levels," which were added to bridge to Doom 2016, which in turn is then negated by Doom Eternal. It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

---

There's much, much more but you've probably gotten the point.

All codex/lore/story entries between Doom 2016 and Doom Eternal are wholly inconsistent on all accounts. In terms of a continuum, it's reasonable for Doom, Doom II: Hell on Earth, Final Doom, Doom 64, Quake, Quake III, Doom 3 and Doom 2016 to work canonically. Doom Eternal conceptually breaks this continuum on so many levels that short of performing some extreme levels of mental gymnastics to make it work, should be considered non-canon garbage by any fan of Doom from Doom 1 (or Ultimate Doom) through Doom 2016.
Última edición por Vesperas; 22 ABR 2020 a las 10:26
Publicado originalmente por Vesperas:
Publicado originalmente por ToveriJuri:
Just Curious. Where does Eternal Contradict itself?

The whole game is a contradiction, especially to the previous games. The only way it is remotely possible is if you buy into the endless dimension/timeline garbage. If so, it had might as well not have a story or lore at all, since everything and anything is simultaneously possible and considered 100% game canon, including one where the Doom Marine ceases to exist. To start with:

In the "Return of Dr. Samuel Hayden" lore entries, it states Samuel Hayden returned to Earth with the crucible and helped solve the energy crisis due to the loss of the argent tower on Mars. This would be consistent with Doom 2016.

However, in several other entries, it claims Hell was already invading Earth before Samuel Hayden returned.

---

It states the ARC had already been formed to battle the demons, Samuel used his position as the leader of the UAC to install powerful AI at their installations and build weapons in support of the ARC resistance, and sent the BFG 9000 back to Phobos to power the BFG 10K.

It also states that the UAC had already fallen under the influence of Ranak, whom had worked with Olivia Pierce on Mars, and that he had used his role as their leader to begin the hell invasion on Earth.

---

It claims that the demons are formed from the soulless refuse from the creation of hell power, but offers no explanation for how the demons came to be in the first place. It basically implies that either the demons or hell power magically appeared out of thin air--effectively, it's a chicken or the egg scenario.

---

It is stated that no living being may cross to Urdak. The one and only (highly convenient) exception is by which the Doom Marine uses to reach it, which is further explained as only being possible due to the Praetor suit which is of Maykr origin. It explicitly states that the Khan Maykr cannot reach hell nor can hell reach Urdak, yet the Icon of Sin is somehow present in Urdak, and proceeds to leave on will.

---

It claims the Elemental Wraiths are needed to create Argent Energy (being a mixture of wraith essence and hell energy) but then proceeds to state that they can produce pure Argent Energy at Nekroval without the wraiths somehow.

---

Neither Samuel Hayden (Samur Maykr) nor VEGA's story/history make any sense whatsoever and they're both entirely inconsistent with how they're portrayed in Doom 2016.

---

It claims that the arachnotron was built by UAC cultists using the remains of the "original" spider mastermind but doesn't specify which spider mastermind. It seems unlikely it was Olivia Pierce due to the (near) impossible timing, and if using the Spider Mastermind from Doom, it fails to mention that the arachnotron had already existed as well in Doom II: Hell on Earth.

Additionally, it also proceeds to drastically retcon and change the history surrounding the cyberdemon, presumably in order to remain consistent with Doom 2016 for no apparent reason seeing as it's highly inconsistent throughout elsewhere, which also leaves doubt as to what it is actually referencing.

---

It claims that the Unmaykr/Unmaker is of Maykr design and is powered with Argent Energy but states in the History of the Sentinel lore that the Khan Maykr did not know of hell prior of the arrival of the Doom Marine. This implies Argent Energy had not yet been created or discovered, and the Doom Marine had already (impossibly) discovered the Unmaker in Doom 64, prior to him ever having met the Khan Maykr.

---

It claims that the Icon of Sin was created through the heart of Valen's son, and it was his betrayal which led to the defeat and imprisonment of the wraiths, yet the Doom Marine had already battled the Icon of Sin before ever stepping foot on Argenta to begin with.

Laughably, it proceeds to claim that the Mancubus seen in Eternal features an even older design with man-made modifications, implying that Doom II: Hell on Earth is canon (which is where it was initially introduced) and thus, the Icon of Sin from Doom II is as well, which negates the lore entry behind the Icon of Sin entirely.

---

Eternal fails to mention the argent fracture at all, despite referencing the argent tower. It also references the lost city of Hebeth or "city of the damned" from Quake, yet fails to mention that the knights (now called the sentinels) and death knights (now called the marauders) had already been conquered by hell and wiped out completely.

This is referenced extensively in Doom 3 (where the argent fracture came from in the first place) and Quake.

---

Eternal fails to mention the Vadrigar or the Doom Marine's time spent in the Arena Eternal in Quake 3, despite referencing him earning his freedom in the Arena Eternal. This especially makes little sense.

---

Eternal fails to mention how the Doom Marine became trapped. Doom 2016 implies he was trapped in the Kadingir Sanctum with a lure devised by the hell priests of the nine circles of hell (otherwise known as the Blood Keep, following his decision to remain in hell forever in Doom 64) but Eternal claims he was sent to siege Nekroval while Valen betrayed the sentinels, and the Doom Marine continued to battle on with his fate unknown.

---

Eternal also depicts him being given his armor by Samuel Hayden (aka the seraphim) prior to somehow stealing VEGA (father) with the God-Machine. However, Doom 2016 states he was given his armor by the betrayer (Valen) and the seraphim instead only blessed him with terrible power and speed.

---

The Doom Marine, having acquired the Praetor Suit, battled and slayed the titan on Taras Nabad with his crucible. Eternal states only the Doom Marine had ever had the crucible and he left it within the titan to ensure it would never rise again. However, it also features the hell crucible seen in Doom 2016 but makes no effort to explain how it came to be. It is a central and key part of the plot in both games and yet it has no explanation.

---

Doom 2016 states that the city of Argent fell to the power of hell and was fully absorbed into hell but Doom Eternal states that the Elemental Wraiths were subdued, secretly taken from Exultia and brought into hell while the sentinels battled the demons in hell.

---

Doom 64 was provided a "Lost Levels" episode to supposedly bridge the story-line from Doom 64 to Doom 2016, while ignoring that the bridge contradicts Doom 64 itself (which is entirely absurd to even think about), and then Doom Eternal proceeds to both retcon and ignore different pieces of lore that Doom 64 introduced.

Explained another way, the actual plot of Doom 64 is negated by the "Lost Levels," which were added to bridge to Doom 2016, which in turn is then negated by Doom Eternal. It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

---

There's much, much more but you've probably gotten the point.

All codex/lore/story entries between Doom 2016 and Doom Eternal are wholly inconsistent on all accounts. In terms of a continuum, it's reasonable for Doom, Doom II: Hell on Earth, Final Doom, Doom 64, Quake, Quake III, Doom 3 and Doom 2016 to work canonically. Doom Eternal conceptually breaks this continuum on so many levels that short of performing some extreme levels of mental gymnastics to make it work, should be considered non-canon garbage by any fan of Doom from Doom 1 (or Ultimate Doom) through Doom 2016.
Doom 3 and Quake are not even canon to this story, and a lot of this seems to come from you not even really paying attention
Vesperas 22 ABR 2020 a las 10:44 
Publicado originalmente por Longshoreman X:
Doom 3 and Quake are not even canon to this story, and a lot of this seems to come from you not even really paying attention

You're clearly the one not paying attention. Doom 3 explains how the argent fracture came to be (it is a closed hell portal) and serves as the introduction of the codex tablets. One of the tablets portrayed and spoken about in Doom 3 is even referenced in Doom 2016 under the Doom Marine's artifact entry. The player in Doom 3 is a different marine.

Doom 2016 features runes and the elemental wraiths are a direct reference to Quake. In Eternal, Hebeth is a direct reference to Quake, even loosely depicting the main bridge feature of the "city of the damned." Hayden further states you need to use the slipgate there (another, explicit reference to Quake) to access Sentinel Prime which is where the Arena Eternal supposedly is, which is a direct reference to the entire plot and setting of Quake III.
Sabaithal 22 ABR 2020 a las 11:19 
About the whole 'hell cannot enter Urdak and vice versa' this is technically because of a 'compact' a deal made with the forces governing hell. The Icon of sin was present only because it was dormant. You could think of it like a machine that is not powered up yet, and therefore not a demon yet.

But when you destroyed the heart, it awoke, and all of a sudden there is now a Demon in Urdak, so the compact was now void.
Vathek1 22 ABR 2020 a las 12:11 
Publicado originalmente por Vesperas:
Hayden further states you need to use the slipgate there (another, explicit reference to Quake) to access Sentinel Prime which is where the Arena Eternal supposedly is, which is a direct reference to the entire plot and setting of Quake III.
Hayden does mention a slipgate exactly once in Doom Eternal, but the rest is just your headcanon. Nowhere in Quake III does it mention that the Arena Eternal is located on "Sentinel Prime." The Arena Eternal is supposed to exist in its own dimension, hence why it can draw upon fighters from completely unconnected time periods and worlds.

Also, Doom 3 is not part of this timeline. You get bonus points for effort, but there is no mention of "argent energy" or anything remotely similar in Doom 3. The UAC's interest in the hell dimension in that game was only due to its teleportation experiments and noticing the time lapse for what should have been an instantaneous process--again similar to the backstory of the OG Doom in which the UAC's main research was teleportation, not energy harvesting.
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Publicado el: 20 ABR 2020 a las 23:58
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