Revisionism within "Nu Doom"

[Grampire]

Probably not advisable to post this - but I found the irony and dissonance amusing and somewhat hard to ignore.

There's been a lot of revisionism regarding 2016 - apparently it's now been deemed "the way."

But reality is a bit different. Doom 2016 probably received even more hate on it's forum than Eternal has.

"This isn't Doom/Doom 2016 Sucks:"

https://steamcommunity.com/app/379720/discussions/0/3223871682611710003/
https://steamcommunity.com/app/379720/discussions/0/1708438218850038256/
https://steamcommunity.com/app/379720/discussions/0/1499000547476824068/
https://steamcommunity.com/app/379720/discussions/0/3464983493949266642/
https://steamcommunity.com/app/379720/discussions/0/5234891274087782118/
https://steamcommunity.com/app/379720/discussions/0/357284131788673935/
https://steamcommunity.com/app/379720/discussions/0/133256758573380862/
https://steamcommunity.com/app/379720/discussions/0/357286119111081612/
https://steamcommunity.com/app/379720/discussions/0/357286033301161466/
https://steamcommunity.com/app/379720/discussions/0/1694919808748979613/

There are dozens more of these threads there. Likewise, there's people complaining about the same things they complain about with this game -

Gameplay "On Rails" with "forced" mechanics:

https://steamcommunity.com/app/379720/discussions/0/1620599015864828444/
https://steamcommunity.com/app/379720/discussions/0/1290691308581362489/
https://steamcommunity.com/app/379720/discussions/0/357285562479852207/

"Platforming/Jump Puzzles Suck:"

https://steamcommunity.com/app/379720/discussions/0/133260492054092305/
Why Super Mario Platforming in 2016?
https://steamcommunity.com/app/379720/discussions/0/1692659769962338906/
https://steamcommunity.com/app/379720/discussions/0/343788552545088997/

"Just a Consolized Game:"

https://steamcommunity.com/app/379720/discussions/0/405694031551558204/
https://steamcommunity.com/app/379720/discussions/0/357286119110889753/
https://steamcommunity.com/app/379720/discussions/0/365163537812878492/

_______________

The truth is most people disliked 2016 for - wait for it - the same reasons they're disliking Doom Eternal.

Who'd have thought? I think the only thing that's surprising is that 2016 is now being paraded as a "great game" when it's literally just the first version of what Doom Eternal is without the refinement and iteration of the ideas it introduced. 2016 is being used in some instances as a template for a "correct" reboot when it shares DNA with Eternal in almost every way.

I have never enjoyed watching people use 2016 to browbeat Eternal - they're both great games that have restored a lot of respect to the Doom name. This little exercise makes these actors look even more ridiculous to me. It's fine to say "oh, Eternal just went too far" - whatever. Or if you don't like both games and where they're going - totally respectable. That's reasonable - they are parts of the same thought and share many ideas.

But don't try to paint it as they went in a completely different direction. In 2016, they told you where they were going and went exactly that way. It was hard to believe they'd double down on the ideas 2016 introduced, but here we are - love it or hate it.

[Sar]

I don’t actually know if Dark Ages of id are to blame on Tim Willits, but it’s fun to point fingers and maybe they were. Games like D3 and Rage felt like they were struggling to find an identity. The trend-setters of yesteryear were following trends, and doing it poorly. Doom 3 played around with survival horror tropes and HL-style storytelling but didn’t commit to either. Rage was some freakish mix of Fallout, Call of Duty and Borderlands which ended up pleasing almost no one. When people talk about how all the cool old talent left id - where have you been for the last two decades?

[Kyller92 AKA Cinos]

Origineel geplaatst door Sar:

When people talk about how all the cool old talent left id - where have you been for the last two decades?

Now we're asking the interesting questions ! \o/

[Grampire]

It's funny too because these guys clearly wanted to branch out from the Doom/Quake template really since before Q1 released. They just never got the target source material refined to a level that captured the market's attention in a big enough way (small exception being Deus Ex). Not sure if it was them or what people expected from them.

I give them some credit for trying - and I still maintain that a competently made Daikatana 2 could be extremely cool.

[Sonic Titan]

Origineel geplaatst door Sar:

I don’t actually know if Dark Ages of id are to blame on Tim Willits, but it’s fun to point fingers and maybe they were. Games like D3 and Rage felt like they were struggling to find an identity. The trend-setters of yesteryear were following trends, and doing it poorly. Doom 3 played around with survival horror tropes and HL-style storytelling but didn’t commit to either. Rage was some freakish mix of Fallout, Call of Duty and Borderlands which ended up pleasing almost no one. When people talk about how all the cool old talent left id - where have you been for the last two decades?

Sandy Petersen has a few videos on his YT channel about his days at id (which are well worth a watch, if you've not seen them already) and also done a couple of interviews (also on YT) where he talks about a "snake in the grass" at id - he doesn't name Tim, but he names basically everyone else.

[Sar]

Origineel geplaatst door Sonic Titan:

Origineel geplaatst door Sar:

I don’t actually know if Dark Ages of id are to blame on Tim Willits, but it’s fun to point fingers and maybe they were. Games like D3 and Rage felt like they were struggling to find an identity. The trend-setters of yesteryear were following trends, and doing it poorly. Doom 3 played around with survival horror tropes and HL-style storytelling but didn’t commit to either. Rage was some freakish mix of Fallout, Call of Duty and Borderlands which ended up pleasing almost no one. When people talk about how all the cool old talent left id - where have you been for the last two decades?

Sandy Petersen has a few videos on his YT channel about his days at id (which are well worth a watch, if you've not seen them already) and also done a couple of interviews (also on YT) where he talks about a "snake in the grass" at id - he doesn't name Tim, but he names basically everyone else.

Well yeah, that’s where that whole idea to blame Tim comes from. That and his wild claims about inventing MP maps etc.

[Sonic Titan]

Origineel geplaatst door Sar:

Well yeah, that’s where that whole idea to blame Tim comes from. That and his wild claims about inventing MP maps etc.

Cool, thought I'd share in case you or others hadn't seen it, as there's a bit of bad press about Tim.

[MedievalPepe]

Origineel geplaatst door gatchoux:

Well yeah, Doom 2016 was a decent, if flawed reboot. It could have came out calamitous but it wasn't. Then Eternal shat itself out, took all the worst elements of 2016, doubled down and made them WORSE. In fact it's a worse game in pretty much every conceivable way. I have no idea why anyone likes this absolute embarrassment of a game.

The fact that people like you exist are why most mainstream fps games today are garbage, mechanically dull and braindead. I highly doubt you even completed the third level of Eternal.

[MedievalPepe]

Interesting post. This is nothing new for long standing game series. I remember New Vegas getting ♥♥♥♥ on for being a bland buggy mediocre glorified Fallout 3 DLC back in 2011 to 2014 days. It wasn't until recent years has New Vegas become regarded as RPG classic.

[Dragova]

Part of the reason you got haters and bashers is because consumers tend to attribute certain products to their ego. Why does anyone need to justify enjoying a game? Why does anyone need to hate on something else? Aren't we supposed to play the games, not have the games play us? Love or hate, isn't going to change the outcome of the matter if there will be more or not. The bigger picture at hand tells me, people are not satisfied with life in general rn.

TLDR: People will make crude comparisons and claims because it's a symptom of the status quo, and probably massive burnout. Probably just unhappy about a lot of things.

[Sar]

Origineel geplaatst door Caesar:

Interesting post. This is nothing new for long standing game series. I remember New Vegas getting ♥♥♥♥ on for being a bland buggy mediocre glorified Fallout 3 DLC back in 2011 to 2014 days. It wasn't until recent years has New Vegas become regarded as RPG classic.

FNV was always regarded as superior by people who actually like RPGs. What you saw was an extrusion of that opinion into the mainstream.

[Grampire]

Origineel geplaatst door Sar:

Origineel geplaatst door Caesar:

Interesting post. This is nothing new for long standing game series. I remember New Vegas getting ♥♥♥♥ on for being a bland buggy mediocre glorified Fallout 3 DLC back in 2011 to 2014 days. It wasn't until recent years has New Vegas become regarded as RPG classic.

FNV was always regarded as superior by people who actually like RPGs. What you saw was an extrusion of that opinion into the mainstream.

Yeah, have to agree. FNV did have a lot of hate around release but it was immediately obvious to me - and I think a lot of other people - that it was way better than FO3 and was a very good game.

It's not entirely different from what's going on with Eternal so it's a good analogy I think.

[Marco]

Origineel geplaatst door Grampire:

Doom 3 is a really interesting slice of the franchise's history for a lot of reasons, many of which you mentioned.

Like the flashlight in Doom 3. You used to be required to switch between your guns and your flashlight. The game was so dark that unless you memorized the entire level and could fight blind you would have to basically disarm yourself for a few seconds so you could visually confirm something, then kite while you switched to a weapon so you could fight.

Thing is, that's still a gameplay mechanic. Some people might actually enjoy the tension that creates - but there's no question it's a big departure from active combat-based gameplay to survival horror. It dramatically slowed the game down compared to every other Doom title to date. But, if you wanted a slower pace, that's a good thing.

It's a natural feedback loop for any audience. And I guess as someone else here said some didn't expect Eternal to flip it's nose at those with a playstyle that wanted to play outside the mechanics. It's not too dissimilar to people who didn't want to play Doom 3 with a flashlight I guess.

Yep, but I didn't mind the use of a flashlight. I'm actually disappointed with BFG Edition because it removed the flashlight by positioning it on some guns (because of negative reviews about it) when in the OG I used it as a weapon against zombies armed with a wrench. I'm a gentleman, you know? Knife VS dogs in Wolf3D and VS mummfied medieval soldiers in RTCW, fists VS unarmed zombies in DOOM 3 so I told myself why not flashlight VS wrench zombies?

Also, it's ironic that most of D3's positive reviews wrote that they actually enjoyed the game when they modded the shotgun spread. Again, while I agree that you feel like you lack power in a single player context, I didn't mind the spread of some guns (other than sg also machinegun and chaingun have some spread so not all of your bullets will 100% hit the target even if it's on your crosshair) and used them as they were. I actually wish Serious Sam HD multiplayer had such balanced guns instead of a totally OP arsenal.

And where you got to dark areas, Imps' loading fireballs, zombies' eyes or even your own plasma bullets enlightnened the room for a few seconds.

I didn't like DOOM 3 for some points you listed above (not the flashlight) and other reasons as well, tbh.

Origineel geplaatst door Sar:

I played through D3 several times and you can count the rooms where you need flashlight on the fingers of one hand.

That’s actually the disappointing thing about D3, it plays with survival horror tropes, but never commits. It’s occasionally spooky,

DOOM 3 may be scary the first time, but when you memorize spawn points and Imps behind doors, it looses all of its 'horror' potential.

Origineel geplaatst door Sar:

but you still carry 10 powerful guns and drown in ammo and medkits.

Except for Nightmare, where you have to rely solely on health stations and Soul Cube.

[Phoenix]

I think the larger part of why Doom '16 and Eternal get so much hate by some people is they have their own idea of what they think a new Doom game should be, and when the developers do something different they don't like it, and attack anyone who does because they're taking it personally. We saw that in the review bombing when Id tried to implement an anti-cheat. The negative reviews had nothing to do with the actual game play and were used just as leverage against the anti-cheat implementation. Id caved and took it out, and that particular crowd got a VERY large ego boost, took victory laps, and rubbed peoples' noses in it. If you dared criticize anything they said or supported anti-cheat in concept or just disliked the review bombing in general you were called a shill for Denuvo or worse, all the while the Steam mods (who seem to ban people over the slightest little aggressive-sounding posts of late) were dead silent towards the verbal abuse going on at the time. This just emboldened these individuals even more.

I get being passionate about Doom, but there does seem to be some VERY toxic gatekeepers that treat Doom and Doom II as if that should be the beginning, middle, and end of anything Doom-related. They are completely unreasonable. My simple answer has always been "If you don't like it don't buy the game." I get attacked for that, and usually respond, "If you think you can make something better why don't you do so?" I get attacked for that too. There's no way to please these people. They're irrational.

Origineel geplaatst door Marco of The S.o.D.:

Also, it's ironic that most of D3's positive reviews wrote that they actually enjoyed the game when they modded the shotgun spread.

The default shotgun spread in Doom 3 was horrible. I think at the time Id wanted people to use the machinegun more for longer range fights and the shotgun for close range, but it spreads MORE than the SSG introduced in ROE. I modded the shotgun spread and reduced the damage to make it feel more like the original Doom shotgun, and gave the plasma projectiles a slight speed boost to make them in line with the original Doom. That fixed 99% of the game for me at the time. The shotgun needed to be useful at close to medium ranges.

[Ace]

Origineel geplaatst door Phoenix:

I think the larger part of why Doom '16 and Eternal get so much hate by some people is they have their own idea of what they think a new Doom game should be, and when the developers do something different they don't like it, and attack anyone who does because they're taking it personally. We saw that in the review bombing when Id tried to implement an anti-cheat. The negative reviews had nothing to do with the actual game play and were used just as leverage against the anti-cheat implementation. Id caved and took it out, and that particular crowd got a VERY large ego boost, took victory laps, and rubbed peoples' noses in it. If you dared criticize anything they said or supported anti-cheat in concept or just disliked the review bombing in general you were called a shill for Denuvo or worse, all the while the Steam mods (who seem to ban people over the slightest little aggressive-sounding posts of late) were dead silent towards the verbal abuse going on at the time. This just emboldened these individuals even more.

I get being passionate about Doom, but there does seem to be some VERY toxic gatekeepers that treat Doom and Doom II as if that should be the beginning, middle, and end of anything Doom-related. They are completely unreasonable. My simple answer has always been "If you don't like it don't buy the game." I get attacked for that, and usually respond, "If you think you can make something better why don't you do so?" I get attacked for that too. There's no way to please these people. They're irrational.

Origineel geplaatst door Marco of The S.o.D.:

Also, it's ironic that most of D3's positive reviews wrote that they actually enjoyed the game when they modded the shotgun spread.

The default shotgun spread in Doom 3 was horrible. I think at the time Id wanted people to use the machinegun more for longer range fights and the shotgun for close range, but it spreads MORE than the SSG introduced in ROE. I modded the shotgun spread and reduced the damage to make it feel more like the original Doom shotgun, and gave the plasma projectiles a slight speed boost to make them in line with the original Doom. That fixed 99% of the game for me at the time. The shotgun needed to be useful at close to medium ranges.

You've pretty much nailed it.

[Marco]

Origineel geplaatst door Phoenix:

I think the larger part of why Doom '16 and Eternal get so much hate by some people is they have their own idea of what they think a new Doom game should be, and when the developers do something different they don't like it, and attack anyone who does because they're taking it personally. We saw that in the review bombing when Id tried to implement an anti-cheat. The negative reviews had nothing to do with the actual game play and were used just as leverage against the anti-cheat implementation. Id caved and took it out, and that particular crowd got a VERY large ego boost, took victory laps, and rubbed peoples' noses in it. If you dared criticize anything they said or supported anti-cheat in concept or just disliked the review bombing in general you were called a shill for Denuvo or worse, all the while the Steam mods (who seem to ban people over the slightest little aggressive-sounding posts of late) were dead silent towards the verbal abuse going on at the time. This just emboldened these individuals even more.

I get being passionate about Doom, but there does seem to be some VERY toxic gatekeepers that treat Doom and Doom II as if that should be the beginning, middle, and end of anything Doom-related. They are completely unreasonable. My simple answer has always been "If you don't like it don't buy the game." I get attacked for that, and usually respond, "If you think you can make something better why don't you do so?" I get attacked for that too. There's no way to please these people. They're irrational.

The default shotgun spread in Doom 3 was horrible. I think at the time Id wanted people to use the machinegun more for longer range fights and the shotgun for close range, but it spreads MORE than the SSG introduced in ROE. I modded the shotgun spread and reduced the damage to make it feel more like the original Doom shotgun, and gave the plasma projectiles a slight speed boost to make them in line with the original Doom. That fixed 99% of the game for me at the time. The shotgun needed to be useful at close to medium ranges.

The new DOOM games also have been destroyed by DOOM 3 fans, not only by purists of the classic game from the 90s. They kept saying all the time that DOOM 3 is a great masterpiece and that DOOM 2016/Eternal suck and are utter trash or that aren't DOOM titles at all. They also criticized the classics by stating they were mindless and braindead run n' gun games and that, if id had the technology back in 1993, they would have made DOOM 1993/DOOM 2 like DOOM 3 (I've read this on D3 section in 2021-22).

I agree that the spread was horrible for a single player context. Thing is, when you enjoy the experience only after modding the guns, then you are enjoying a mod and not the default game. It is like I give positive review to Red Faction when I actually played Dash Faction, a patch that enables console and lets you change crosshair size and other changes. Nothing wrong with it, but people are not reviewing the original game then.

Back to shotgun, this didn't prevent me from using default shotgun to one-shot Imps, two-headed mutants and Wraiths anyway or to find out that two headshots from a close range can kill the tenticle mutant.

I also considered the use of MG like a Quake 2 thing which was out of place in a DOOM game the first time I opened D3. But it's okay now.