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Counter-Strike 2 > Discussões gerais > Detalhes do tópico
Host Migration 15/set./2018 às 11:32
valve, make your anti-cheat intrusive
pls, i just went into a non prime game and out of the 4 games 2 people where cheating
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Escrito originalmente por KillahInstinct:
First of all, people asking for an intrusive anti-cheat don't really know what they're talking about - because we already have it, it's called VAC and it's installed both on server and client-side, making it as intrusive as something can be (and should get).

If it becomes any more intrusive, you're opening up yourself to serious security and privacy risks - and you might as well just throw your PC in the trash right away.

Fact is, we already have the best anti-cheats - I mean, why else would it be catching so many cheaters? More than any other anti-cheat combined, mind you. People are greatly excaggerating cheaters because they need an excuse for dying, or because they simply don't understand how the game/internet works (lag, delayed bans, compensation, skill, prefire, luck etc etc). People somehow think ESEA/FACEIT are better, but they forget they only have to catch the few cheats that are undetected by VAC and others.

The other anti-cheat methods simply compliment where VAC is designed to be delayed.


Escrito originalmente por Sir Det Mist:
Escrito originalmente por Cyanfrost:
Valve is not stupid nor they have done stupid decisions.
Do you really think that in the start to today they haven't considered an intrusive anticheat?

Heres the fact, we have TF, Prime, OW and Vacnet because VAC is useless, they keep tacking on all this other ♥♥♥♥ because VAC cant do the job, it might aswell just not be there.
You seem really clueless on how things work, companies, work, anti-cheats and games. You might want to read up because contributing in such a way without any reason to back it up, you might as well not be posting.
Escrito originalmente por Sir Det Mist:
Lets go further, Valve didnt really make CS infact it took them over 10 years to even surpass the first one and they didnt even make it, Source was never really accepted compared the 1.6 and CSGO didnt have a great start.
Especially the history of CS, you seem to have just heard something vaguely and made your own version of it. The pre-release CS beta mod concept was developed by 2 students back in 1998 (?), based on Half-Life which was purposefully made modable, and immediately picked up by Valve who have been developing the CS franchise since '99, with some exception (Hidden Path initially developed CSGO).
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Exibindo comentários 1–15 de 63
roi 15/set./2018 às 11:33 
No.
#1
Echo NO Aim 15/set./2018 às 11:33 
no. there are many reasons against it and this discussion is as older than csgo.
#2
Host Migration 15/set./2018 às 11:45 
Escrito originalmente por Echo NO Aim:
no. there are many reasons against it and this discussion is as older than csgo.
what are the reasons exacly? esea and faceit have an intrusive anticheat and noone is screaming about it looking through my stash of xxx toyota prius images
#3
RaimaNd 15/set./2018 às 11:49 
Escrito originalmente por opteratiun pannis bree:
Escrito originalmente por Echo NO Aim:
no. there are many reasons against it and this discussion is as older than csgo.
what are the reasons exacly? esea and faceit have an intrusive anticheat and noone is screaming about it looking through my stash of xxx toyota prius images
The only argument against it is a poll on reddit where many people were against it. That's it.

The questions are:
Why is reddit so important?
What people are on reddit?
When was the poll and how many people would like to have it now?
And why not booth anti cheats? We've trusted and prime matchmaking. Why not a third one called "super prime" or "prime+" where people have to use a more intrusive anti cheat. I would use it because I use intrusive anti cheats since over 15 years and all people beeing afraid of it have no reason for it.
#4
Agent-r00tk1t 15/set./2018 às 11:56 
I'd rather they didn't. Look, there's serious gaming services out there, if you're happy to have intrusive tools on your machine in order to get cheat-free games. And, tbh if I played this game seriously enough I'd subscribe to one or more of them.

But, as it is I just want to fire up the game from time to time, and shoot around (mostly on casual tbh), and for that I don't want to have to install some low level driver to play the game.

If every online game starts making this level of intrusive protection, then the kernel level will be a mess, and you're going to start seeing blue screens. If Valve make one for CS:GO it will be the new baseline, what you must beat to sell a cheat for CS:GO. So, it'd be beaten and now the same cat+mouse war we have now would be waged in kernel mode instead of user mode. No thanks.
#5
Fuerst Fux 15/set./2018 às 12:02 
Escrito originalmente por Agent-r00tk1t:
I'd rather they didn't. Look, there's serious gaming services out there, if you're happy to have intrusive tools on your machine in order to get cheat-free games. And, tbh if I played this game seriously enough I'd subscribe to one or more of them.

But, as it is I just want to fire up the game from time to time, and shoot around (mostly on casual tbh), and for that I don't want to have to install some low level driver to play the game.

If every online game starts making this level of intrusive protection, then the kernel level will be a mess, and you're going to start seeing blue screens. If Valve make one for CS:GO it will be the new baseline, what you must beat to sell a cheat for CS:GO. So, it'd be beaten and now the same cat+mouse war we have now would be waged in kernel mode instead of user mode. No thanks.
Full ack.
#6
Host Migration 17/set./2018 às 9:55 
Escrito originalmente por Agent-r00tk1t:
I'd rather they didn't. Look, there's serious gaming services out there, if you're happy to have intrusive tools on your machine in order to get cheat-free games. And, tbh if I played this game seriously enough I'd subscribe to one or more of them.

But, as it is I just want to fire up the game from time to time, and shoot around (mostly on casual tbh), and for that I don't want to have to install some low level driver to play the game.

If every online game starts making this level of intrusive protection, then the kernel level will be a mess, and you're going to start seeing blue screens. If Valve make one for CS:GO it will be the new baseline, what you must beat to sell a cheat for CS:GO. So, it'd be beaten and now the same cat+mouse war we have now would be waged in kernel mode instead of user mode. No thanks.
blue screens? since when has an intrusive anti-cheat caused blue screens, yeah i could imagine a poorly put together anticheat can cause some sort of blue screen, but we're talking about valve,
if faceit and esea can do it, valve can do it, yeah theres faceit and whatever but i would rather have a game be great at start up, i dont want to download some services to make it 2x as better
#7
Agent-r00tk1t 17/set./2018 às 17:15 
Escrito originalmente por opteratiun pannis bree:
blue screens? since when has an intrusive anti-cheat caused blue screens, yeah i could imagine a poorly put together anticheat can cause some sort of blue screen, but we're talking about valve,
if faceit and esea can do it, valve can do it, yeah theres faceit and whatever but i would rather have a game be great at start up, i dont want to download some services to make it 2x as better
The comment about blue-screens wasn't about a single anti-cheat or even a single game. The issue would come about where all these anti-cheat drivers are trying to co-exist at the driver level.

In the end, you're ignoring the main reason. If valve make the best anti-cheat in the world, the cheats will just make the best cheats in the world. If you think there's a single solution that doesn't involve a valve employee standing behind you watching you play that could beat every cheat. Then I'm afraid you're mistaken. It doesn't exist.

Let's keep gaming in usermode code where it belongs.
#8
oldirty` 17/set./2018 às 17:26 
Escrito originalmente por Agent-r00tk1t:
In the end, you're ignoring the main reason. If valve make the best anti-cheat in the world, the cheats will just make the best cheats in the world. If you think there's a single solution that doesn't involve a valve employee standing behind you watching you play that could beat every cheat. Then I'm afraid you're mistaken. It doesn't exist.

Well, if people would give up 100% of their privacy and give valve 100% access to their machines then cheats would be no more. Obviously thats never gonna happen, for good reasons.

We already have ring0 cheats and Valve is already detecting them at that level (at least some) so that cat-mouse game already started.
#9
Agent-r00tk1t 17/set./2018 às 18:28 
Escrito originalmente por oldirty`:
Escrito originalmente por Agent-r00tk1t:
In the end, you're ignoring the main reason. If valve make the best anti-cheat in the world, the cheats will just make the best cheats in the world. If you think there's a single solution that doesn't involve a valve employee standing behind you watching you play that could beat every cheat. Then I'm afraid you're mistaken. It doesn't exist.

Well, if people would give up 100% of their privacy and give valve 100% access to their machines then cheats would be no more. Obviously thats never gonna happen, for good reasons.

We already have ring0 cheats and Valve is already detecting them at that level (at least some) so that cat-mouse game already started.
Yeah but when anti-cheat is running in kernel mode, there's only one real place for the cheat makers to go.. And, I mean.. How do you beat that?
#10
Trapacid 17/set./2018 às 18:53 
I'm going to educate you about why an intrusive anti cheat is a bad idea. This is coming from someone who has helped develop many small company-based anti cheats.

1. Limited system support

It is very difficult for an intrusive anti cheat to support many operating systems. ESEA and Faceit for example, only support Windows 7 and up. Faceit has not too long ago end the support for 32 bit systems (thankfully). Windows 7 is coming to an end quite soon.

I know ways to implement an intrusive anti cheat into Unix systems like Mac OS and Linux, but they are very tedious and non-efficient and have risks.

2. You can't trust all companies.

ESEA. That one company, has killed their own player base with their own anti cheat and actions. They:
- Implemented a Bitcoin miner and destroyed computers.
- Faked their player numbers (been doing this not too long ago)
- Illegally double-charged users
- Poor optimisation of their anti cheat
- And very bad development of their anti cheat, causing blue screens and system crashes.

They also have a super intrusive anti cheat which I would not trust as a former Volunteer ESEA Support Admin and from my personal experience.

Valve have enforced their own TOS and Steam Subscriber Agreement. Implementing an intrusive anti cheat will just break their own words and people can bring them to court for it.

3. It's Kernel based, going back to limited system support and poor optimisation
Kernel-based anti cheats are where the client installs a non-Universal Plug and Play driver that sits in your system and kernel 24/7 monitoring for any illegal calls, functions, etc and blocking those illegal commands. Problem with this is, some of these illegal commands are from safe programs and the operating system, causing blue screens due to the system not being able to access the required resource. This is similar to the built-in Windows function: DEP.
Kernel based ACs also prevent custom drivers from bypassing the anti cheat's protection. Kernel anti cheats prevent the use of Microsoft's Test Driver mode which allows users to test drivers without them being signature enforced.

To circumvent this, people can go ahead and spend thousands of dollars on a driver signature for their cheat, if they're lucky to get it verified which is super unlikely. So you don't see this around often.
This also reduces performance of your system if unlucky. ESEA has by far the worst optimisation of their anti cheat.

Kernel based anti cheats/intrusive anti cheats are very effective, don't get me wrong. Although, it's not a toy and shouldn't be messed around with. You can destroy systems very easily, going back to the Spectre and Meltdown exploits in January 2018 that has persisted in systems dating to 2000.
Última edição por Trapacid; 17/set./2018 às 20:02
#11
the Winter Warlock 17/set./2018 às 19:42 
They should for those who are willing.
#12
Trapacid 17/set./2018 às 19:43 
Escrito originalmente por the Winter Warlock:
They should for those who are willing.
This.

I wouldn't mind having an intrusive anti cheat if we get the choice to at no penalties or costs if we choose not to.
#13
the Winter Warlock 17/set./2018 às 19:45 
Make two versions
Intrusive CS-GO or Non Intrisuvie
#14
>I lied, I'm not Nine_Ten 17/set./2018 às 19:59 
I'm okay with intrusive
#15
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Counter-Strike 2 > Discussões gerais > Detalhes do tópico
Publicado em: 15/set./2018 às 11:32
Mensagens: 63

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