Spells that New players (and Veterans) should probably Avoid

[Legowarrior]

I was hoping to put together a list of spells that just aren't worth for most players or nations. Because the paths are hard to come back, because the cost is too high or because there is a better or cheap other that might be available.

This doesn't have to be a spell which is terrible for everyone, but just in general, people should have a game plan before casting them.

One that comes to mind is the Hidden Spells.
At 75 Earth or Water gems, the 3 Hidden spells don't offer much. If you have high Fortune, you have a chance at extra mages (testing shows magic doesn't impact it). So, if you have high fortune, and there are paths that you don't have natively, it can be worth it, but usually, if you have a decent amount of death, a Spectre Mage can get you the same results, for only 22 Death Gems.

[onard2]

Construction is a fully separated school. Just because you have Enchantment 6 doesn't mean you have Construction 6 to craft nice items, and indeed there's not a lot of ways to spend water or earth gems if you decided to go Enchantment 6 first.

Also Riches from Beneath is considered one of the weakest globals for a reason. It's on the same school and level yes, but boosting resources is usually lackluster if not worthless depending on your nation and the gold income is pretty minor, while Hidden in X gives you extra troops and magic right away and can break you into new paths. And no, specters and Lamias aren't automatically better for breaking into new paths because they're on a different school and demand different paths of magic.

[Legowarrior]

onard2 a écrit :

Construction is a fully separated school. Just because you have Enchantment 6 doesn't mean you have Construction 6 to craft nice items, and indeed there's not a lot of ways to spend water or earth gems if you decided to go Enchantment 6 first.

Also Riches from Beneath is considered one of the weakest globals for a reason. It's on the same school and level yes, but boosting resources is usually lackluster if not worthless depending on your nation and the gold income is pretty minor, while Hidden in X gives you extra troops and magic right away and can break you into new paths. And no, specters and Lamias aren't automatically better for breaking into new paths because they're on a different school and demand different paths of magic.

What are you talking about 'weakest'? It can practically double your income and your resources. It's heads and shoulders above the Hidden Spells unless you are in such a poor position that you barely have any provinces to begin with (probably caused by hoarding 75 gems for a useless spell).

It also greatly increases you resources, allowing you to expand your army production, in addition to building my temples and labs.

Also, double check your facts on boot and Girdles of Might. Both are construction 4, while hammers are construction 2. Getting construction 4 is only 750 research points.

Getting Enchantment 6 is 2,750 research points. Side tracking to construction 4 is something you will want to do, if only to get Earth Boots, but also to grab Legion of Steel, which is probably the great level 3 Spell for any nation that uses armor.

Looking at the Dust Priest, Released Sage and Unforzen Mage, their path just don't add much for the nations that can native cast Hidden in the Snow, or Hidden Underneath or Hidden in the Sand, except maybe Astral. And even then, it's a 1 in 3 chance for Hidden in the Sand of the Dust Priest giving you Astral.

[Zonk]

A long, long time ago, I used to think that Fire Darts had the potential to be really good when cast by high-level F mages.
My reasoning being that while it's only 10 damage, it's AP, you get 2+level projectiles and it has +4 precision. And hey, it's Evocation 1.

Soon enough, I realized this was simply not the case because projectiles can land in a square without actually hitting any unit in it and, since it's not an AoE effect, it could hit shields and thus be nigh-useless even against units with basically no armor.

EDIT: I expect, at some point, someone will bring up that most Evocations are less than impressive because of the projectile rules.

[Maerlande]

mergele a écrit :

for starters Conjuration:

Summon Sea Dogs
Summon Crocodile
Spirit Curse
Black Servant
Summon Fire ants
Summon Shades
Summon Killer Mantis
Summon Amphiptere
Summon Cave Crab
Summon Bog Beasts
Summon Cave Drake
Summon Shade Beasts
Summon Cave Drake
Summon Shade Beasts
Summon Lammashtas
Summon Leogryphs
Summon kitharonic Lion
Summon spring Hawks
Spirit Mastery
Vermin feast
Contact Forest Giant
Summon Sprites
Harvester of Sorrows
Call the Eater of the Dead
The Kindly Ones
Call Abomination
Call Ancient Prescence

Right let's do this with analysis.

Sea dogs are a viable option to get some water provinces for cheap early.
Crocodiles are pretty bad.
Black servants make fine dirt cheap thugs for killling low ♥♥ with a skeleton amulet. And a viable amphibious scout since there are no scouts in water provinces.
Bog beasts are a fine way to block for foul vapours. I have used them in MP
All drakes are good if you can afford dragon master. Gem cost becomes very viable.
Forest giants are an excellent soak for mind blast and astral spam.

Or in other words, I disagree with most of your list. Yes those spells are niche, but they have use.

[Big Dog]

The hidden in spells work with rigor mortis while troll kings and their units don't tho.

[Kamiyama]

Zonk a écrit :

A long, long time ago, I used to think that Fire Darts had the potential to be really good when cast by high-level F mages.
My reasoning being that while it's only 10 damage, it's AP, you get 2+level projectiles and it has +4 precision. And hey, it's Evocation 1.

Soon enough, I realized this was simply not the case because projectiles can land in a square without actually hitting any unit in it and, since it's not an AoE effect, it could hit shields and thus be nigh-useless even against units with basically no armor.

EDIT: I expect, at some point, someone will bring up that most Evocations are less than impressive because of the projectile rules.

I lean towards self-buffs and whole battlefield spells for this reason. I noticed that with combat mages. They miss. A lot.

I know this seems weird but I also tend to avoid buff spells that have both a area and a range. It's like, where are they going to cast it? I would prefer it to have a wider area and a range of 0 so it's centered on the caster and I can position a block of units on top of him so I know they get buffed.

Sure the AI probably has rules that decide how best to cast the spell for maximum effect but I don't know what those rules are and can't predict what's going to happen. So for instance I like using H3 for Divine Blessing but rarely use H1 because who are they going to cast Bless on? Will they bless themselves? The infantry? The archers? Is it random? Are there rules? How many H1 mages should I bring for maximum coverage? I have no idea.

And rather than test it out I just avoid using them because I'm lazy.

[Legowarrior]

< blank > a écrit :

The hidden in spells work with rigor mortis while troll kings and their units don't tho.

They are also weak to Banishment, control the dead, solar rays, cleansing water, withering bones, and undead mastery and some others.

But, yes, if you are a nation with Death 4 mages, you can cast Rigor Mortis if you hit Enchantment 6. I just don't know many nations with Death 3, that also have the Earth 3/ Death 1 access needed for Hidden in the Sand, or the Water 3/Death 1 Access for hidden in the Snow. Maybe LA Atlantis?

What is a nation that you would want to cast Hidden in the Snow or Hidden in the Sands, or Hidden Underneath?
https://illwiki.com/dom5/hidden-in-terrain?s[]=hidden

[Big Dog]

Legowarrior a écrit :

< blank > a écrit :

The hidden in spells work with rigor mortis while troll kings and their units don't tho.

They are also weak to Banishment, control the dead, solar rays, cleansing water, withering bones, and undead mastery and some others.

But, yes, if you are a nation with Death 4 mages, you can cast Rigor Mortis if you hit Enchantment 6. I just don't know many nations with Death 3, that also have the Earth 3/ Death 1 access needed for Hidden in the Sand, or the Water 3/Death 1 Access for hidden in the Snow. Maybe LA Atlantis?

What is a nation that you would want to cast Hidden in the Snow or Hidden in the Sands, or Hidden Underneath?
https://illwiki.com/dom5/hidden-in-terrain?s[]=hidden

You unlock them at the same research which means if you rush Enchantment 6 for whatever reason and can cast rigor mortis and the hidden in spells, it can be very strong early in the game.

MA Xil is a good example and you usually want at least Enchantment 5 on the nation. It can cast all of them. It can rigor mortis using cap only mages in blood communion.

Would probably need luck scales to maximize the strategy.

[Legowarrior]

< blank > a écrit :

Legowarrior a écrit :

They are also weak to Banishment, control the dead, solar rays, cleansing water, withering bones, and undead mastery and some others.

But, yes, if you are a nation with Death 4 mages, you can cast Rigor Mortis if you hit Enchantment 6. I just don't know many nations with Death 3, that also have the Earth 3/ Death 1 access needed for Hidden in the Sand, or the Water 3/Death 1 Access for hidden in the Snow. Maybe LA Atlantis?

What is a nation that you would want to cast Hidden in the Snow or Hidden in the Sands, or Hidden Underneath?
https://illwiki.com/dom5/hidden-in-terrain?s[]=hidden

You unlock them at the same research which means if you rush Enchantment 6 for whatever reason and can cast rigor mortis and the hidden in spells, it can be very strong early in the game.

MA Xil is a good example and you usually want at least Enchantment 5 on the nation. It can cast all of them. It can rigor mortis using cap only mages in blood communion.

Would probably need luck scales to maximize the strategy.

Enchantment 5 to 6 is 1300 research points, which is close to getting another path from 0 to 5 by itself (1450).

But, if you have taken Xi with high magic, high order and high fortune scales, and elected not to increase you income with Riches Beneath, and instead gone with a few extra undead, and remote chance at 1 extra mage, I guess it's up to you. 55 extra undead troops and all.

[disnegativ]

I don't have strong opinions on the list given by mergele, but by and large it encourages the wrong mindset. I use spells as solutions to problems - and some indeed usually don't help - but discarding them outright before / without contemplating the problems you face is not particularly helpful.

All the hidden ... spells come with fairly elite undead troops. They still have your typical undead weaknesses, but they all have a ... power ability, improved hp + cold / heat aura or very high protection, decent stats and magic resistance 16, 2 higher than wights. (Weak to banishment, really?) You pay for these troops and their leader as well, if you don't want them it is indeed a very costly way to summon a (good chance at a) mage.

[Legowarrior]

disnegativ a écrit :

I don't have strong opinions on the list given by mergele, but by and large it encourages the wrong mindset. I use spells as solutions to problems - and some indeed usually don't help - but discarding them outright before / without contemplating the problems you face is not particularly helpful.

All the hidden ... spells come with fairly elite undead troops. They still have your typical undead weaknesses, but they all have a ... power ability, improved hp + cold / heat aura or very high protection, decent stats and magic resistance 16, 2 higher than wights. (Weak to banishment, really?) You pay for these troops and their leader as well, if you don't want them it is indeed a very costly way to summon a (good chance at a) mage.

Anything that is undead can be targets by a Holy 1 indie mage that can cast banishment. It might not succeed very often, but at 0 fatigue and a low requirement, it's not hard to spam.

The fact is, enough of them can do damage, and the units only have 8 hitpoints means it doesn't take a lot of success to do damage and kill them, elite or not.

[disnegativ]

Legowarrior a écrit :

The fact is, enough of them can do damage, and the units only have 8 hitpoints means it doesn't take a lot of success to do damage and kill them, elite or not.

You never really looked at the units, I reckon. Released ones have indeed 8 hp, dust and unfrozen types 25 all with higher MR than the most elite undead unit summon. If you buy a whole toolbox, but really only want a single tool in it, it will always look expensive.

[Legowarrior]

disnegativ a écrit :

Legowarrior a écrit :

The fact is, enough of them can do damage, and the units only have 8 hitpoints means it doesn't take a lot of success to do damage and kill them, elite or not.

You never really looked at the units, I reckon. Released ones have indeed 8 hp, dust and unfrozen types 25 all with higher MR than the most elite undead unit summon. If you buy a whole toolbox, but really only want a single tool in it, it will always look expensive.

You are correct, the dust and frozen ones have 25 hitpoints. Hopefully thats enough to make up for 11 protection.

It's a diverse toolbox that is reliant on pretty rare paths, high scales, and an incredible high price in a gem that has a lot of legitimate competition.

I would argue that you are in dire straights if you need both above average undead troops, (slightly) more path diversity (which some might view as incredible random) and a commander that can lead undead troops.

It's both too high in cost and research to pull out early.

It's the sort of spell I would not cast if I took Misfortune, or didn't take Magic, or took either turmoil/order in the opposite direction of what the spell benefits from.

[Dast]

I am surprised to see "hidden in sand" mentioned in this thread. In a recent game I cast it a lot (I had a site that made enchantments spells 20% cheaper). My experience was that is was crazy good.

Against MA C'tis is was so perfect. His dominion couldn't harm them with disease. Said dominion had Heat 3 so their fire power worked great. With some gems a supporting fire spirit or even one of the dustwalker mages could put up a firestorm and bake all those marshmasters, lizzard shamans and C'tisiain soliders to death, the firestrom (and possible foul vapours) bounced harmlessly off the dustwalkers. The fact that you get 2 strong mages (I think its possible to only get 1 if you are unlucky?) with each casting of Hidden in Sand makes it really good.

I also think shade beasts are good. As C'tis (probably other land-based death-using nations) I think they are a great way to expand UW. Independents usually can't hurt them and in Gorges and Deep seas their darkpower makes them v. strong.

[Legowarrior]

Dast a écrit :

I am surprised to see "hidden in sand" mentioned in this thread. In a recent game I cast it a lot (I had a site that made enchantments spells 20% cheaper). My experience was that is was crazy good.

Against MA C'tis is was so perfect. His dominion couldn't harm them with disease. Said dominion had Heat 3 so their fire power worked great. With some gems a supporting fire spirit or even one of the dustwalker mages could put up a firestorm and bake all those marshmasters, lizzard shamans and C'tisiain soliders to death, the firestrom (and possible foul vapours) bounced harmlessly off the dustwalkers. The fact that you get 2 strong mages (I think its possible to only get 1 if you are unlucky?) with each casting of Hidden in Sand makes it really good.

I also think shade beasts are good. As C'tis (probably other land-based death-using nations) I think they are a great way to expand UW. Independents usually can't hurt them and in Gorges and Deep seas their darkpower makes them v. strong.

No, you only have a 20% of getting 2 mages if you have fortune 3. You have some really good luck IRL to get 2 mages from both castings.