Is Jotunheim's mid-game Illwinter spell really useless?

[Imperialguard11]

I'm playing Jotunheim, and just cast Illwinter, which sounds like this really powerful spell which is kind of like an end of the world scenario. However, the only things that have happened after a year or two is every province is cold 3, and one or two provinces per turn get attacked by some jotun/niefel units, which doesn't succeed often. Is this all Illwinter does, or is it only the beginning, and I just need to be patient?

[Zonk]

Setting all provincs to cold 3 is quite powerful, especially vs heat and/or coldblooded nations.

[Imperialus]

Particularly because you have cold power on a lot of your units. Especially Jotun Jarls and I think Skittari.

[Reign_of_Error]

Originally posted by Imperialguard11:

every province is cold 3

This is in itself a big advantage. It increases your income in provinces you take that are not in your dominion, whilst reducing the income of most or all of your opponents. I think only Caelum likes it colder than Jotunheim in the Middle Age. It probably also increases your relative movement on the strategic map, for your units which have "snow move".

It's also a bonus for you in battle. It makes effects that depend on cold more powerful (e.g. Grip of Winter, which exhausts units), which are also ones you are mostly resistant to. Cold resistance is relatively rare and not that usual as a bless. edit as Zonk points out, some heat-loving or cold-blood nations are disadvantaged in battle, and some magical heat/fire effects - which you generally hate - are weakened.

The little attacks are a bonus - they aren't that strong, but they will win against smaller amounts of PD sometimes.

That said, Illwinter isn't AS strong for Jotunheim as for its Early Age predecessor Niefelheim, which has units that get stat bonuses in cold and prefers -3 cold.

[Reign_of_Error]

Originally posted by TLFT Song of Roland:

Particularly because you have cold power on a lot of your units. Especially Jotun Jarls and I think Skittari.

MA Jotunheim doesn't have cold power units like EA Niefelheim, I believe, though most of the MA units have cold resistance. They are cold-loving big guys with beards, but not made out of ice like the Niefel units.

[DasaKamov]

Originally posted by Imperialguard11:

and one or two provinces per turn get attacked by some jotun/niefel units, which doesn't succeed often.

There are some aspects of the game which are more effective versus human opponents (and vice-versa). Spells which cause random attacks on enemy provinces have (generally speaking) more impact in MP games, as many players don't consider heavy investment into PD to be a good expenditure of gold. You also have a psychological impact against human opponents which the AI ignores completely. ;)

That said, yes, making the world Cold is powerful in its own right. Aside from reducing your opponent's incomes and slowing their strategic movement, some spells, such as "Murdering Winter", are much more effective when cast in regions with strong Cold Scales -- "chaining" such spells together can be devastating for your opponents.

[Twogun]

ever had it cast against you when you were already up against it for other reasons in MP? it's a real pain.

[ÆtherNomad]

Originally posted by DasaKamov:

You also have a psychological impact against human opponents which the AI ignores completely. ;)

I'm a bit skeptical about that part, not because I deny its existence, but rather because I'd say that the psychological impact is likely to be negative for you. When seeing this global, and even more when receiving random attacks, people will most likely start disliking you. In other words, this ritual provides a huge diplomatic malus to its caster.

[DasaKamov]

Oh, you're definitely not goig to make any friends by casting Illwinter (in a non-Disciples game), but the same holds true for the vast majority of other Globals.

Ideally, the player casting Illwinter does so while in position of strength, and uses that spell as part of their overall strategy rather than just casting it at random and then saying, "ah crap, everyone hates me; what do I do now?!" ;)

[ÆtherNomad]

But because of the diplomatic factor, I'm not sure I see a situation in which that spell is worth casting, unless you're already strong enough that you believe yourself able to withstand a war from everyone else on you.

[Exanthos]

Originally posted by ÆtherNomad:

But because of the diplomatic factor, I'm not sure I see a situation in which that spell is worth casting, unless you're already strong enough that you believe yourself able to withstand a war from everyone else on you.

If you just happen to be the only cold-loving nation in a mob of heat-loving nations, the advantage it can give you if you rush illwinter can quickly shape the game in your favor. Sure, everyone will try to kill you real quick, but after you beat their armies (which they threw at you piece-meal since you're smart and cast it when everyone is fighting each other), you'll be able to field over double what they can.

[Nukular Power]

the Magic Enhanced mod adds some neat flavor spells to jotunheim for summoning neifel giants and such. It would be cool if Ilwinter just made them pop up rarely or something but it's definitely better than vanilla!

[Big Dog]

Making everything cold 3 is pretty good IMO... Imagine the points you can save in pretender design if you plan a way to cast this spell somewhat early.

[Mardagg]

Originally posted by Chris:

Making everything cold 3 is pretty good IMO... Imagine the points you can save in pretender design if you plan a way to cast this spell somewhat early.

i dont think going Heat 3 with a cold nation and planning to cast Ilwinter is a good idea.
An early cast of this spell will make everyone very angry on you right away + there is no guarantee that the spell stays up for long.

[Big Dog]

Originally posted by Mardagg:

Originally posted by Chris:

Making everything cold 3 is pretty good IMO... Imagine the points you can save in pretender design if you plan a way to cast this spell somewhat early.

i dont think going Heat 3 with a cold nation and planning to cast Ilwinter is a good idea.
An early cast of this spell will make everyone very angry on you right away + there is no guarantee that the spell stays up for long.

Who says heat 3? Is everything black and white with you?

[Mardagg]

Originally posted by Chris:

Originally posted by Mardagg:

i dont think going Heat 3 with a cold nation and planning to cast Ilwinter is a good idea.
An early cast of this spell will make everyone very angry on you right away + there is no guarantee that the spell stays up for long.

Who says heat 3? Is everything black and white with you?

lol, why so unfriendly?
Your post did imply exactly this to me...you can safe the most points going heat 3 no?
Go neutral temperature and face heat 2 during the summer. Ive seen this on cold 2 nations, its doable. No big need for illwinter then though.