Twiceborn doesn't match description - suggested changes

[Legowarrior]

Twiceborn is an awesome spell, especially with all the work that Illwinter did to it but when looking at the spell, and how it’s used, I'm not sure its description is completely accurate.
"With this ritual, the necromancer enchants his own body to protect himself from death. If the necromancer is slain, he is revived as a Wight Mage in the province where the ritual was cast, possibly gaining dark insights in the process...." The rest is not necessary.
I feel like as its used mostly especially for expansive units, is just a to convert expensive units into free units that are a bit more hardy by killing the unit. This isn't always the case, but I feel like its used regularly like that, and I think that is more in line with the idea of Lichcraft than Twiceborn.

To my mind, since the necromancer is enchanting his own body, the spell seems more like a get out of death free card. When the necromancer dies, the necromancy starts the mages unlife, but in the same body. But dead. A lot like Black Channels does in Master of Magic.

In order to facilitate that, I suggest the following.

Twiceborn - instead of changing the Necromancy instead brings the unit back to life, like LA Pythium's Katabasis, but with the following changes. The necromancer is dead, so it gains the following:
• If it’s not aquatic or Amphibious, it gains the Poor-Amphibian (this way you don't suddenly have Mind lords climbing onto land)
• Undead (Because it’s undead)
• Need-not-eat
• Spirit-sight
• Resist Cold: 25
• Resist Poison: 25
• Cold Aura: 3
• Plus 6 Map Movement
• 0 Maintenance cost
• 30% of plus 1 death magic.
The benefit is that you can use the same images and Mage States. It would work with monsters, with mages, even with Black Sorcerers. The caster doesn’t change, it just gains the features that it would have as the original wight spell but stays in it’s own body. A true Twiceborn.
What then with all the art though? Illwinter made a lot of incredible art, and I don’t want to see any of it wasted, and for that I have 1 other idea.
Lichcraft doesn’t make a lot of sense to me. Turning another necromancer into a lich, one that has never existed is just odd. I’ve always thought of Lichcraft as something a Necromancer does to himself. So, I propose that Illwinter does that, in a similar fashion as in Conquest of Elysium. Instead of creating a lich, the caster turns himself into a lich. We use all the super cool new art and stats that Illwinter created for Twiceborn, but instead use it for Lichcraft. Unlike the Wight Mage, the Lich would get the following:
• Resist Fire – -10
• Resist cold – 15
• Resist Poison – 25
• Fear - +9
• Immortal
• Poor-amphibian
• Pierce resistant
• Undead
• Lifeless
• Need-not-eat
• Sight sight
• +1 Death Magic.
It would still require 5 death, although probably only 15 to 20 death gems, so it would be relatively rare, but I think it would fit how many (maybe even most) people have always viewed the idea of a Lich.

Finally, I would love Curse of Blood to make the caster into a vampire instead of someone else. The caster stays the same, but gets all the cool vampire skills, like regeneration, dark vision, flying, blunt resistance, and probably a 100% bonus to either death or blood magic.
I know these ideas will probably not make it into Dominions 5, but maybe for Dominions 6.

[Eldritch Gentleman]

I like the idea of lichcraft being able to turn the unit itself into a lich. However, I really like twiceborn as it is. The wight form is a lot more interesting, and is actually really useful- you can use it to turn some units like zamzummites, angakoks, etcetera into serviceable thugs due to the massively increased HP pool, aura, and lack of encumberance.

[Legowarrior]

Having a spell that is supposed to be a last minute life insurance policy have a better form then the character itself doesn't make a ton of sense. Besides, with my suggestion, mages keep their ability to fly, and most of the perks of the wight mages. They just retain their base form.

[Andrej_S.]

there is a mod, that turns caster into lich. There is no problem become lich, vampire or a worm mage.

[Twogun]

obviously you could make it 'better'

but why?

for 5-15 D gems, you are already getting a pretty good spell.

i mean, i could change flare to be AOE10 and have 50+ Damage. that doesn't mean it should be done...

[Legowarrior]

Because its not used an insurance spell, but a transformation spell. Which should be different.

[Meaglin]

Originally posted by Legowarrior:

Because its not used an insurance spell, but a transformation spell. Which should be different.

You're way more right than you know! My apologies if you've ever modded before, and if you have, you can ignore the next paragraph.

The way Dominions modding works, generally, is it doesn't change a unit into a wight by adding a set list of traits to a unit. It changes the unit's ID, and only certain kinds of info are saved across the transformation - I think heroic status, magic paths(including holy) and XP are the only things saved.

What you're advocating for is instead of change unit ID, you want these traits to be flat-out added, which has the potential for nonsensical results.

Consider the example of a Dai Oni given Lichdom:
They start with 5 fear. They gain 1 level of Fear per level in Death magic. This results in Fear 8. If you give them a flat 5 Fear, they get Fear 13, which seems excessive. If you give them Fear 9, they would have fear 17, which is quite silly.

Or consider the combination of a Vampire template with an Atlantean template: Which wins, unable to cross rivers, or amphibious?

There are solutions to this problem. The first and simplest from a technical POV is to manually set up each unit's Twiceborned or Lichformed form.

I would prefer not to do that, personally - for every new "type" of unit, you'd need to add special forms.

The second is setting up a program that runs diff on the unitID of the original unit and the lich|vampire|twiceborn|Whatever form, then adds or trims tags. This would be doable, but it would add a significant chunk of effort to be done under the hood and would still need a manual bypass in case of Illwinter or modders wanting to give certain units special lich|vampire|twiceborn|whatever forms.

Finally, I understand that you don't like that spells are being used in ways you don't like and I respect your right to have an opinion, but that doesn't mean that your opinion should be implemented.

tl;dr, your idea would take a medium-high amount of under the hood effort to implement.

[Legowarrior]

I appreciate your reply. As you noted, given units abilities is tricky using modding at the best of times. I think Dragon Mastery does it, but I can't think of any spells that give units abilities after death. It would have to be a combination of Katabasis (which automatically brings the unit back to life in the casting location) and a twist on Dragon Mastery. Something that would be tricky, to be sure. Which is why it would be something that I think would be up to the Illwinter. Plus of course, it would be a big change to the game.


But, although your examples aren't the best (keep in mind, Demons, Undead and Inanimate mages can't be the target of twice born, and I would assume that Lichcraft and Curse of Blood would be exactly the same), you do bring up a good point about fear, and the other benefits.

So perhaps a change is in order, so that units gain a cold resistance up to 25, and the same with poison resistance. And their natural fear gets bumped up to 5 (but doesn't stack with current levels of fear).

And perhaps the Cold Aura could equal Size Plus 1 (if the mage didn't have one already).

This should help with cases like the Niefel Jarl, although it won't help the Dai Oni, which as a Demon, can't be helped at all.

On the other hand, become undead isn't exactly a walk in the park. Suddenly you Niefel Jarl is vulnerable to all sorts of spells and weapons. Holy Scourge is a beast if you have an undead Jarl.

As for your example of a Vampire, I guess you have a point. I would say Vampire Beats Amphibious, and make the spell only castable in outside of water. So, once you cast it, no longer can you got back into the sea. Oh well.

On the plus side, none of the Atlantians have both Death and Blood, so neither of them can cast it natively without a whole lot of work. In which case, you have earned it.

Only the Skratti can any sort of combination of Blood and Death that is a giant. Some giants have Blood, some have death, but only the Gygja and the Skratti are the only ones with both that I could find that wasn't already a demon or undead. And neither of amphibious.

So, I doubt your issues will come up very often.

Perhaps, like Twice Born, both Lichcraft and Curse of Blood should have scaling costs.

Do let me know if you see any other short falls. I'm happy to discuss the pitfalls of my idea and work on ways to solve them.

[Twogun]

Originally posted by Legowarrior:

Because its not used an insurance spell, but a transformation spell. Which should be different.

well, that's just like, your opinion man. but even so, it doesn't negate my point.

[Legowarrior]

What was the point again? That it's good as is?

I guess I have to disagree. The problem with twice born is that it's a very cheap spell (path wise) and requires custom units and stats for most possible categories, including monsters. In fact, we don't have custom forms for most monsters. If you have a giant monster dog, you can twice born it into a Titan.

It also screws up Trinity gods, as they lose the penalties of being a Trinity when you cast twice born.

So, you need up with half measures. Since my idea doesn't rely on new units, just the same unit gaining new abilities and draw backs, I think it is a better fit.

[Eldritch Gentleman]

It's fun. The developers are adding wight chassis for most units, and I'm glad to see that. I greatly prefer the game being thematic and having my necromancers turn into undead, horrific wights, rather than simply gaining new traits and abilities upon death. Dominions has never really been a game about balance, in my opinion- it's about the story. Losing out on Wights in favour of stat changes makes the game more boring- you no longer have these undead monstrosities rampaging about the battlefield, enjoying their newfound existence and all the traits that come with it, you just have mages with an immunity to cold and poison and a vulnerability to banishment.

[DasaKamov]

Originally posted by Legowarrior:

I feel like as its used mostly especially for expansive units, is just a to convert expensive units into free units that are a bit more hardy by killing the unit. This isn't always the case, but I feel like its used regularly like that

Since this is the foundation of your argument, I have to ask -- where are you getting these feelings from?
Like another poster insuated, that may be how you use the spell (and it can be a legitimate use), but that's not how *everyone* uses the spell. Myself, for example, I most often use Twiceborn on old-age cap-only mages, because I'd rather not put 220-odd gold into a Slow-to-Recruit unit only to have them croak from natural causes a few turns later. ;)

[Legowarrior]

So, in your case, my suggested change wouldn't make a difference, would it? You would get the same outcome.

I guess my big worry stemmed from the MA Machaka bug. You suddenly had a titan from your Black Sorcerers death. I realize that has been fixed, but we still have the concern that large monsters don't twice born into large monsters, but instead titans and having to have a fix for every single Pretender or monster with Death Magic seems like a lot of work with little gain.

If the goal of Twice-Born is a back up, then it should be the same mage, just undead.

By having it just update the current unit, you no longer have to worry about making individual Wight Chases for each and every monster possible so you don't end up with a Serpent of Chaos, Dog of the Underworld, Linnormr, Sphinx, Devourer of Souls, Hound of Hades and other monsters turning into a Wight Titan.

And of course, Wight Mages wouldn't be lost, because we can simple repurpose them for Lichcraft, which being Death 5, would be much harder for most creatures to cast, and less likely to cause troubles.

Also, its more fitting for Lichcraft, since the goal of Lichecraft is to turn into an undead being of great power, unlike Twice Born, which, again, is just a back up in case you die.

[Red_Rob]

Originally posted by Legowarrior:

I realize that has been fixed, but we still have the concern that large monsters don't twice born into large monsters, but instead titans and having to have a fix for every single Pretender or monster with Death Magic seems like a lot of work with little gain.

If the goal of Twice-Born is a back up, then it should be the same mage, just undead.

By having it just update the current unit, you no longer have to worry about making individual Wight Chases for each and every monster possible so you don't end up with a Serpent of Chaos, Dog of the Underworld, Linnormr, Sphinx, Devourer of Souls, Hound of Hades and other monsters turning into a Wight Titan.

This isn't that difficult. Dominions Enhanced already does it.

I decided to try to give everything that could reasonably have Death paths a thematic Twiceborn shape. This meant anything with a native D path, along with all the Pretenders, and anything that could be Transformed into using the spell. It didn't require as many new Wight shapes as you might think. I added a quadruped "Wight Beast" in sizes 2, 4 and 6, along with a Necrophidian (Wight Snake) in size 3 and size 6. Finally I added a generic size 4 Wight Giant for cases where a Murmurer or Hag wasn't appropriate, and a DracoWight (using the sprite of the Dracolich).

Most things without hands got the Wight Beast shape closest to their size. Snakes got one of the Necrophidians, and Dragons got the DracoWight. Flying size 5-6 Pretenders I had become a Ziz if twiceborned, and big aquatic Pretenders became a Leviathan. A few units got specific Wight shapes where no others fit - living plants became a Dying Treelord for example.

As long as you are willing to stretch just a little in your expectations, and don't get bent out of shape if a Shedu becomes a 4-legged beast on death, it isn't that much work to assign thematic Wight shapes.

[Legowarrior]

Thanks for replying.
That is awesome work and I hope Illwinter follows suit. I guess it tackles most of the reason for my suggested changes to Twice Born (the lack of appropriate shapes).

I still like my idea more of just taking your mage and applying undead to it. It makes the unit a bit more unique since they are now undead Jarl's instead of Giant Wight Mages with the Appropriate paths, but I can definitely understand that this isn't a pressing issue.

[Andrej_S.]

Originally posted by Red_Rob:

Originally posted by Legowarrior:

I realize that has been fixed, but we still have the concern that large monsters don't twice born into large monsters, but instead titans and having to have a fix for every single Pretender or monster with Death Magic seems like a lot of work with little gain.

If the goal of Twice-Born is a back up, then it should be the same mage, just undead.

By having it just update the current unit, you no longer have to worry about making individual Wight Chases for each and every monster possible so you don't end up with a Serpent of Chaos, Dog of the Underworld, Linnormr, Sphinx, Devourer of Souls, Hound of Hades and other monsters turning into a Wight Titan.

This isn't that difficult. Dominions Enhanced already does it.

I decided to try to give everything that could reasonably have Death paths a thematic Twiceborn shape. This meant anything with a native D path, along with all the Pretenders, and anything that could be Transformed into using the spell. It didn't require as many new Wight shapes as you might think. I added a quadruped "Wight Beast" in sizes 2, 4 and 6, along with a Necrophidian (Wight Snake) in size 3 and size 6. Finally I added a generic size 4 Wight Giant for cases where a Murmurer or Hag wasn't appropriate, and a DracoWight (using the sprite of the Dracolich).

Most things without hands got the Wight Beast shape closest to their size. Snakes got one of the Necrophidians, and Dragons got the DracoWight. Flying size 5-6 Pretenders I had become a Ziz if twiceborned, and big aquatic Pretenders became a Leviathan. A few units got specific Wight shapes where no others fit - living plants became a Dying Treelord for example.

As long as you are willing to stretch just a little in your expectations, and don't get bent out of shape if a Shedu becomes a 4-legged beast on death, it isn't that much work to assign thematic Wight shapes.

can you cut this from global mod and create some mini-addon?)) will be a great