Mekone/Phelgra Pretenders

[Executor]

After reading a bit about Red_Robs titan issue, with which I whole-heatedly agree, I thought it might be worth to raise some minor concerns regarding Mekone and Phelgra and their own titan issues, and pretender inconsistencies.

While it's highly thematic that Mekone/Phelgra should have only monster pretenders for obvious reasons, they are also exactly the type of nations that wants anything *but* monster pretenders which makes them nations strangely at odds with themselves. In addition, weirdly enough, they seem ideal for a rainbow because they want quick research, path diversity, and gems.
The main reasons to take monsters is their much cheaper bless price compared to titans (or anything else really) and the ability to rather safely expand. Monsters are also only worth taking awake, as their main utility is a cheap bless and early game expansions and aggression, since they often become obsolete by mid-game.
Now, given that Mekone/Phelgra are not bless nations and therefor don't really want bless monsters, or rather don't fully benefit from them, there's much less incentive to take one, or if you do, to invest as little points as you can. Technically, the best monster would be an Earth Snake with literally no points wasted on paths which is kinda sad. With all that in mind these nations are heavily penalized with their pretender options, since you're somewhat forced to take very inefficient pretenders, so technically, their pretenders cost a lot more than they actually do.

One of the best pretender choices is, again ironically enough, something that Mekone/Phelgra should not really even have, the Lich. There's no Master Lich, Vamp Queen, or anything alike, so is there any reason for them to keep the Lich, given that he's also a humanoid, an Arch Mage? I don't think you can reasonable make an argument to keep one but not the other so why not just give them normal options? I doubt any many of those would qualify as 'gods of men'.

Flavor-balance is in practice a horrible thing I fear, and this is also a case where flavor balance actually goes against itself as it's not exactly thematic for monster-oriented nations to be punished for taking monsters.

Now what would be a good fix for this? Well, better pretender options or a specific mechanic for their monsters.

[sunbeam]

Used to tinker with EA Mekone. I usually used a pretender with N paths, because it really sucks not being able to forge some of the N items, particularly given how I was using the Polemach's heavily.

Your reasoning makes a lot of sense, but unless you use indies for N site searching (not a bad bet in EA), the Demilich can't move around to search. I guess if someone comes up with some starter N gems, he can cast Haruspex though.

[Zonk]

it's not exactly thematic for monster-oriented nations to be punished for taking monsters.

They're (eventually) monstrous giants, though. Not monsters in the same way non-humanoid dom2 pretenders are.

to why not just give them normal options?

Because that'd make them more normal and blander. I actually think removing the Lich would be better.

I'm hoping they will get some national dom2&3 Gigante-themed pretenders. Maybe something based on Typhoon.
For LA (and possibly MA) lesser cyclops pretenders could also work. Or a Cyclops Tyrant.

Also, presumably titans will be buffed at some point, so the limited amount of titans they have access to will be more useful.

[Red_Rob]

The reason they don't get most of the Dom1 Pretenders is they won't worship no stinkin' humies. You could give them a Dom2 High Basileus with Pathcost 10 or a Titan Rainbow in the vein of the Neteret of Many Names though to fill that niche.

[Zonk]

Also

Technically, the best monster would be an Earth Snake with literally no points wasted on paths which is kinda sad

I don't see what's so sad about a hypothetical monster that can both help expansion (despite lower E meaning lower prot) & provide good scales instead of a bless.

[Executor]

Honestly, having more options does not make them bland, not having any options does that a whole lot more. If you have to pick the pretenders in exactly the same fashion every time (yet at a disadvantage compared to other nations) it becomes bland a lot faster. And the sad part is that you've made pretender design pretty much one-dimensional since you have a distinct lack of choice. That is bland. I'm not saying give them everything other nations have, I'm saying give them something that is unique to them, but not at the same time a gigantic penalty for no real reason.

Red_Rob, they don't get any dom 1 pretenders. Anyway, there are plenty of pretenders that don't really fit under the category of 'gods of men' which could be added. Like I said, if you add the Lich, then feel free to add the Ghost Kind, Master Lich, etc. Additionally, there's no reason not to add as you say at least a national version of a rainbow, to fill in the gigantic pretender design flaw.

[Executor]

It's also a bit funny that Mekone/Phelgra are the perfect scales nations, considering their theme.

[Zonk]

They have options, though. Not the best, perhaps, but having more or less options is part of both nation flavor & balance (Berytos having so many pretenders is part of its strength, for example).
I'd rather they add a limited amount of national pretenders.

As for Ghost King, Master Lich and so on...aren't these pretenders < size 4 and thus actually unable to lead Gigantes & Cyclopes? I think that would be really awkard. Unless you make pretenders an exception to this rule.
(EDIT: The Demilich also has this problem obviously. )

Originally posted by Executor:

It's also a bit funny that Mekone/Phelgra are the perfect scales nations, considering their theme.

Why? I think it makes a lot of sense, especially in EA. Being scales-focused doesn't mean they're benevolent. They have an obvious tyranny theme, and Order is a positive scale...

[Executor]

Not exactly, I sincerely doubt their current pretender options are part of the 'flavor'. They're more of a by-product of their theme. I doubt it was intended for them to be majorly screwed during pretender design by being limited to pretenders that are ill-suited for them, and even if it was, it's a pretty singular experience that I vehemently oppose. You should not get screwed over in pretender design. Certain nations suffer from lack of pretender options, but there are no nations that suffer from lack of pretender types.

Then the Lich should be removed as well. Like I said, there's absolutely no reason for him to be on the roster considering he's even less than a human mage. This is rather inconsistent. Either remove him or then add the other such pretenders. You can't have it both ways. The Lich can't command the gigantes any better, it doesn't matter that he's immobile, there's still rituals. I know you agree with removing him, I'm just pointing out the inconsistancy here.

[Executor]

Here's the issue with the gigantes problem;
There are plenty of nations that suffer from bad pretender option, from not having nearly as many to having much worse versions, and I'm perfectly fine with that. Everyone having the same pretenders would be bland, but this is a completely different issue. Take the Japanese pretenders for example, their dragons are horrible compared to the western ones, but, they're still there as an option. They still have a monster pretender type, even though the monsters themselves might be worse.
However this is not the case with Mekone/Phelgra. They have a lack of a pretender type, which is a significant balance issue. If you were to follow Mekone/Phelgra example and remove pretenders for the sake of flavor, then there should probably be other nations that should be severely restricted in pretender choices in much the same manner. Plenty of nations have completly nonsensical options yet they are there for the sake of balance.
So, I'm saying, give Mekone/Phelgra the same options literally every other nation in the game has, because they are currently at a big disadvantage, and let's face it, some of these nations struggle already.

[BoboYagga]

I usually go immobile statue with them. It makes sense that they might worship the 'idea of themselves' or a statue that looks like them. The immobile statue is great for a scales build.

[Zonk]

some of these nations struggle already.

Are you implying MA & LA Phlegra are underpowered too, not just Mekone? I think that would be an uncommon opinion.
AFAIK, general consensus is that both Phlegras are reasonably balanced and only Mekone 'struggles'.

Plenty of nations have completly nonsensical options yet they are there for the sake of balance.

I would agree with removing some more options (but I think that was obvious from my lich comment above), although I don't think it's 'plenty' of them.
For example, doesn't Abysia still have that river serpent as an option, even in EA (the Wadjet)? Could be removed.

[ÆtherNomad]

I think that "rainbow-less nation" is an interesting concept for Mekone and Phlegra. And I agree that the Lich is both a rainbow and a pretender that isn't thematic at all for these nations, so I am too in favor of removing the Lich from Mekone's and Phlegra's pretender options.

If Mekone and Phlegra have a uniquely limited pretender option list, then it should make sense both thematically and mechanically. This absolutely means removing all pretender options that don't make sense thematically (which is already mostly done; but for unknowable reasons, the Lich was spared, which shouldn't be the case) and harmonizing that handicap by making sure it also makes sense mechanically (so, ALL pretender options with pathcost lower than 40 should be removed as well - and the Lich is one of them).

[Zonk]

ALL pretender options with pathcost lower than 40 should be removed as well - and the Lich is one of them

I don't think the problem is the (relatively) low pathcost and pseudo-rainbowness, but the fact they were/are human and/or small.

A <= 40 pathcost national pretender (a gigante or lesser cyclope in LA, perhaps) would be nice to have and not unthematic at all.

EDIT: An undead gigante (or again, cyclope) wouldn't be unthematic either. But I'd give priority to getting living versions first.

[Executor]

Yes, some, not all. Mekone is pretty damn weak, yes, though a big part of that is that EA is ripe with some pretty broken nations. Mekone is pretty much a cripple nation relatively compared. Haven't tried LA Phelgra in PvP but it seems like its damn solid (though the hero should really be limited to only come after the volcano event). MA is so so. I think it could be a good nation if it had pretender options that synergized with the nation's theme. Atm it just sort of feels..? I dunno, self-castrating and impotent to a degree.

There certainly are size 4 rainbow pretenders out there. Fomoria iirc.I think Also the Niefel/Jotun ones. Probably some others too. I honestly don't see why they should not have rainbows. Ideally you'd want a pretty diverse pretender on them. The only limit should be no Olympian style gods and no human gods.

Edit: Also, worth noting that there are some titan-esque pretender options to make up for no titans. The defeated Telkhine, Drakina, Mother of Monsters, etc, that are in effect the same as titan pretenders. Should have the same approach to rainbows.