Am I understanding this Communions bit correctly?

[onomastikon]

Please correct me or help elucidate here, as I am trying to get this right:

1. In any battle, there can be only 1 communion per side. That is: Anyone casting CM (or having a Master matrix) joins the only single communion that will exist that battle as a Master, independently of turn number (matrix wearers join in turn 1) and anyone casting CS (or geared with a Slave matrix) will become a slave in that one communion.
2. All masters create fatigue through spellcasting, and the fatigue a master generates is calculated according to standard rules, but then split in equal parts amongst herself and then all of the participating slaves. E.g.: Master M has at time of casting "Earthquake" 5E (let's say base 2E, + previously cast Summon Earthpower, plus being in a communion with 4 slaves = 5E), and has 4 gems at her disposal, so that the fatigue she generates would be: base 300 x 0.3 (by having 5E + 1 extra gem = 6E for a 4E spell) = 100 fatigue. This 100 fatigue is to be distributed in 5 parts, there being 5 participants (1 Master, 4 Slaves), so that M takes 20 fatigue, and the rest of the fatigue (80) is given to the slaves.
3. The slaves, however, take modified amounts of this fatigue portion, or rather modify the portion assigned to them according to their paths relative to the path requirements of the spell cast. In the example above, this would mean the following. Slave Sl1 has no native earth, Sl2 has a modified earth value of 3 (base 2, plus 1 from summon earthpower, whose bonus Sl2 gets because M cast this previously), Sl3 also has modified E3, and Sl4 has modified E4. Each slave is to receive base 20 fatigue, this is modified so that Sl1, 2 and 3 all take 80 fatigue (since they all have half the modified Earth level that M used to cast the spell), and Sl4 takes 40 fatigue.
I'm taking this from page 93 of the manual. I'm not sure if this is to be interpreted to mean the modified level of the Master including extra gems the master used to cast the spell, or without these, or including the modified levels from self-buffs and items, etc. Perhaps it means that M's value should be treated as 2, or 3, or 4, or 5, instead of 6?
Please help me here!
4. I am assuming that this part (point 3 above, page 93 of the manual) is to be interpreted to mean that the levels of slave and master are compared in the particular path of the spell being cast, not to mean that ALL (modified) spell path levels of the master are compared to ALL (modified) spell path levels of the slave(s). In other words: If a master is going to be casting very earth-heavy spells, it would be good (for the health of the slaves) for the slaves to have as much Earth magic as possible within reason, whereas if a master is going to be casting very air-heavy spells, the slaves' great ability in earth are irrelevant. To conclude: It is "better" for slaves to have some ability in the paths the Master will be casting. Yes?
5. Let us assume a situation in which a large battle is being planned in which at least two Masters are to take place, each of which is specialized in a different ability. Master 1 plans to cast at least 3 heavy Air spells, Master 2 plans to cast at least 3 heavy Earth spells. Because of point 1 above, there can be only one communion. This means: Unless all slave participants have equal (high) ability in both Earth and Air, at least some of the slaves will always be taking heavy fatigue penalty from the Master with whom they are not aligned casting either A- or E-heavy spells. And there is no way around this, right? Because if I'm right in point 1, and point 3 and 4 are also more or less right, then big battles with complex communions will always screw at least some slaves over bad, no?

thanks much

[Morsigil]

1. Correct. Each opponent has a single communion that all their mages join into.

2. Correct and incorrect. Fatigue is split among the masters and slaves, that is true. 5E + 1 gem would reduce Earthquake, an E4 spell, to 300/2 = 150/2 = 75. That is split among the master and slaves. Not 100% sure but I think the encumbrance of the caster stays just with the caster, so the master would get their share plus encumbrance. Slaves would modify what they get based on their relative paths to the master as per the manual.

3. Incorrect. I don't have access to the manual for the exact values but keep in mind that the slaves get the bonus paths, too, not just from summon earth power but from the other slaves in the communion. So if the master is boosted by 2 then the slaves are all boosted by 2 assuming they have at least 1 in the path. With E2, the master can only have twice the paths of the next rank (E1) or else the slave has 0 in the path. So let's take your example.. E2 master with 4 slaves, and lets say the slaves are all E1. Master jumps to E5 with summon earth power and communion levels, slaves jump to E4, +3 total for both master and slaves.

Also it's not the relative level of the spell being cast, it's the relative path of the caster themselves to the slaves and vice versa.

4. It's better, but not required, for the slaves to have the same paths as the spells being cast. Otherwise the slaves take a heavy penalty in fatigue. How high the slave's paths should be when casting certain spells is open to debate. There is definitely an "ideal" for fatigue purposes but practically speaking there are plenty of workable setups.

5. Yes, if you have a communion casting air and earth spells then any of the communion slaves who don't have air or earth will take the fatigue penalty for the offending spells.

Many nations that use communions share paths between the masters and the slaves, but almost every nation (that natively is inclined to use communions) has a master that is going to have 1 or 2 paths that the slaves do not have or have very little of. In those situations you rely on numbers and battle brevity so you don't burn out slaves, but also sometimes you just let a few slaves burn out if it means winning a really big battle. You're definitely going to lose units, and communion slaves are not unlike the troops you're putting on the front lines.

[sunbeam]

I've got a question about the timing of communions.

Let's say we have a Communion Master with a Crystal Matrix, so he starts the battle as a Master.

There are ... just say 8 Communion Slaves, they cast the Communion Slave spell as their first action.

Now if the Communion Master had a Crystal Shield, would the Communion Slaves benefit from Power of the Spheres?

And let's say the Communion Master cast Summon Earthpower as his first action. Would that propagate to these slaves who are casting Communion Slave at the same time as the Master is casting Summon Earthpower?

I could answer these questions by playing a game, but I'd have to research up and find some gem sites, so hopefully someone just knows the answer.

[waTTe]

Just to inform you in case you care:

Your post contains basic structure, but only that: basic, but mainly its a "text-wall".
I didnt read it, maybe others wont too.

[Morsigil]

The crystal shield casts power of the spheres as a start of battle spell, so if the slaves are not already in the communion they will not be subject to it.

I'm less clear about the order of operations what with simultaneous casting. I suspect it follows the same order as before, the top most mage in the army layout screen going first, but I do not know.

[lord_khaine]

As i understand it, now casting order is randomized.

[onomastikon]

Originally posted by Morsigil:

1. Correct. Each opponent has a single communion that all their mages join into.

2. Correct and incorrect. Fatigue is split among the masters and slaves, that is true. 5E + 1 gem would reduce Earthquake, an E4 spell, to 300/2 = 150/2 = 75. That is split among the master and slaves. Not 100% sure but I think the encumbrance of the caster stays just with the caster, so the master would get their share plus encumbrance. Slaves would modify what they get based on their relative paths to the master as per the manual.

3. Incorrect. I don't have access to the manual for the exact values but keep in mind that the slaves get the bonus paths, too, not just from summon earth power but from the other slaves in the communion. So if the master is boosted by 2 then the slaves are all boosted by 2 assuming they have at least 1 in the path. With E2, the master can only have twice the paths of the next rank (E1) or else the slave has 0 in the path. So let's take your example.. E2 master with 4 slaves, and lets say the slaves are all E1. Master jumps to E5 with summon earth power and communion levels, slaves jump to E4, +3 total for both master and slaves.

Also it's not the relative level of the spell being cast, it's the relative path of the caster themselves to the slaves and vice versa.

4. It's better, but not required, for the slaves to have the same paths as the spells being cast. Otherwise the slaves take a heavy penalty in fatigue. How high the slave's paths should be when casting certain spells is open to debate. There is definitely an "ideal" for fatigue purposes but practically speaking there are plenty of workable setups.

5. Yes, if you have a communion casting air and earth spells then any of the communion slaves who don't have air or earth will take the fatigue penalty for the offending spells.

Many nations that use communions share paths between the masters and the slaves, but almost every nation (that natively is inclined to use communions) has a master that is going to have 1 or 2 paths that the slaves do not have or have very little of. In those situations you rely on numbers and battle brevity so you don't burn out slaves, but also sometimes you just let a few slaves burn out if it means winning a really big battle. You're definitely going to lose units, and communion slaves are not unlike the troops you're putting on the front lines.

Thank you very much.
Re #3: I had no idea, I can't find that info anywhere in the manual. Slaves get boosted by themselves? Are you sure?
Yes, I meant that: I meant only that fatigue penalty is calculated relative to the paths of the caster and slaves but *only* in the path of the spell being cast.
So do all units like theurg communicants automatically take x4 penalty since they have no native path ability?
Re #5: That makes sense, thanks. I suppose I'm learning and experimenting now with a nation that is not really ideal for communions in the sense that they don't have cheap mages who can join communions (just expensive ones).

[oddball]

Originally posted by Morsigil:

1. Correct. Each opponent has a single communion that all their mages join into.

Agree. Worth noting that this extends to sabbaths too. i.e. there is only one communion/sabbath period and it can be joined by communion master/slave or sabbath master/slave.

Originally posted by Morsigil:

2. Correct and incorrect. Fatigue is split among the masters and slaves, that is true. 5E + 1 gem would reduce Earthquake, an E4 spell, to 300/2 = 150/2 = 75.

My understanding is that 5E + 1 gem would cause the caster to cast the spell as if he were E6 and thus reduce the cost of earthquake (an E4 spell) to 1/3 of it's normal cost = 100. i.e. the original poster would be correct here.

Except he's not :-). Because if a communion mage uses a gem to boost his path level, he can only use his base path level (before communion) - 1 gems on the spell itself. In this case that's not enough to cast earthquake so the gem cannot be used to boost his path further and he will cast earthquake as a simple E5 caster and generate 150 fatigue.

Originally posted by Morsigil:

That is split among the master and slaves. Not 100% sure but I think the encumbrance of the caster stays just with the caster, so the master would get their share plus encumbrance. Slaves would modify what they get based on their relative paths to the master as per the manual.

I believe that the master and slave share all fatigue equally including that caused by encumbrance and drain etc.

Originally posted by Morsigil:

3. Incorrect. I don't have access to the manual for the exact values but keep in mind that the slaves get the bonus paths, too, not just from summon earth power but from the other slaves in the communion. So if the master is boosted by 2 then the slaves are all boosted by 2 assuming they have at least 1 in the path. With E2, the master can only have twice the paths of the next rank (E1) or else the slave has 0 in the path. So let's take your example.. E2 master with 4 slaves, and lets say the slaves are all E1. Master jumps to E5 with summon earth power and communion levels, slaves jump to E4, +3 total for both master and slaves.

Also it's not the relative level of the spell being cast, it's the relative path of the caster themselves to the slaves and vice versa.

I believe the comparison is between the master's path level including buffs and item boosters and the slave's path level also including buffs and item boosters. Path levels gained by virtue of the communion itself, or by virtue of an extra gem used in the casting are not considered.

So an E2 mage leading E1 slaves would count as fatigue x 2. If the master wore a pair of earth boots it would count as fatigue x 4 since E3>2xE1. If on the other hand there were two E2 masters neither of whom is wearing boots and one of whom casts summon earthpower, and a slave who is wearing earth boots then you get an E3 master (the one who cast summon earthpower), an E2 master (the one who did not cast summon earthpower) and an E3 slave (E1 + 1 for the boots and 1 for the summon earthpower cast by the first master). Should the second (E2) master now cast a spell, the slave will take only half fatigue because his level is now higher than the master's. If there are seven other slaves that master's path level is considered as E5 for the purposes of whether or not he can cast the spell and for calculating the total amount of fatigue to be shared. But the slave multiplier is calculated without the extra +3 to either the master or the slave.

Originally posted by Morsigil:

4. It's better, but not required, for the slaves to have the same paths as the spells being cast. Otherwise the slaves take a heavy penalty in fatigue. How high the slave's paths should be when casting certain spells is open to debate. There is definitely an "ideal" for fatigue purposes but practically speaking there are plenty of workable setups.

There are indeed plenty of workable setups but it is worth calculating this carefully because there are some quite counter-intuitive results.

For example imagine a group of 20 EA Marverni druids of which 10 are E1 and 10 are E2. You want to cast mostly E3 spells. You initially decide to make the E2 mages masters and the E1 mages slaves. Your masters cast the spells with an effective level of 5 calculated as their initial 2 + 3 extra from the 10 slave communion. This means that for a spell with a base fatigue cost of 50, the actual cost would be 16.67. This is then split 11 ways for a cost of 1.51 rounded up to 2 for the master. The slave multiplier of 2 (slave level < master level) is then applied to get 4 fatigue per slave.

On the other hand you could make the E1 druids the masters and the E2 druids the slaves. In this case the effective casting level would be 4 and the cost to cast the 50 fatigue spell would be 25. This is then split 11 ways to get 2.27 again rounded to 2 for the master, but this time divided by 2 (slave level > master) to get 1 fatigue per slave.

Clearly in this case it is better to make the lower level mages masters. Of course this isn't the end of your calculations. Because looking at the second example I now see that the masters are taking a lot more fatigue than the slaves so perhaps I can make 2 of the E2 slaves masters as well. Now we have 12 masters (2 E2 and 8E1) and 8 E2 slaves. To imporve things further let's have one of the E1 masters cast Summon Earthpower and we now have 3 E2 masters, 9 E1 masters and 8 E3 slaves. Now we have 12 masters, three of whom will create slightly less initial fatigue because they are one level higher and eight slaves all of whom will still take half fatigue because they are all higher level than any of the masters.

In general, as a rule of thumb, it is perferable to make lower level mages masters if you are spamming evocations with large communions. However higher level masters are necessary when you are trying to reach for a high level spell.

Originally posted by Morsigil:

5. Yes, if you have a communion casting air and earth spells then any of the communion slaves who don't have air or earth will take the fatigue penalty for the offending spells.

Many nations that use communions share paths between the masters and the slaves, but almost every nation (that natively is inclined to use communions) has a master that is going to have 1 or 2 paths that the slaves do not have or have very little of. In those situations you rely on numbers and battle brevity so you don't burn out slaves, but also sometimes you just let a few slaves burn out if it means winning a really big battle. You're definitely going to lose units, and communion slaves are not unlike the troops you're putting on the front lines.

If the master has a path that the slaves have very little of consider making the slaves masters and vice versa. If the master has a path that the slave has none of then yes you need to be careful. Worth noting the following:
(a) a slave with skill 0 is considered to have 0.5 for the fatigue calculation so masters with only 1 skill are less dangerous to their slaves than masters with 2 or more.
(b) path boosting buffs do not buff slaves with 0 skill. So buffing a master with a skill of 1 can be counterproductive. Yes your master casts the spell from one level higher so generates less fatigue, but all your slaves will now be taking 4x fatigue instead of 2x...
(c) reinvig is especially important where slaves have no skill level. Even if I am a totally non-blood nation I try to get at least one communion master empowered in blood just so he can cast reinvigoration as his last scripted spell. This resets all the communion slaves fatigue to zero.

[oddball]

Also - see this https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1OlzLT2bHI-Ldk5N8js4KoAPB1yof8G3FgXJEkaxNSoM/edit#gid=0

I think there's actually a more recent version of this somewhere, but don't know where I'm afraid.

[onomastikon]

Hey thanks tons, that spreadsheet is also exceptionally helpful, I think I get it now. ;) Or anyhow better. Cheers!

EDIT: Sometimes Dom5 reds out certain spell choices in my script list, obviously that's not always a good indication of what it takes into account, but why is it doing it here:
- a level 3 mage wants to cast a level 4 spell which costs 100 fatigue and is not in a communion. The mage has 2 gems in inventory. The game un-reds the scripted spell when the mage has 3 gems in her inventory. Shouldn't 2 be enough? The spreadsheet seems to confirm this. Sorry just want to make sure I'm not overlooking something.

[sunbeam]

Oddball, that is a really, really good writeup.

Want to add a couple things though.

Straight hp's don't seem to grab anyone's attention much, unless they have 1 Blood or 1 Nature not doing anything at the Pretender screen.

But those things are gold for nations with sacred mages that join communions. Phaeacia and Uruk in particular have beefy communion slaves.

Fatigue past 200 on a communion slave is turned to damage for each 50 further fatigue. So every hp means a lot in a communion.

Additionally if you can get regen on communion slaves, it takes an unusual set of spells to cast to get the communion slaves to die, or an extremely long battle.

Not that many nations with the astral/nature path on mages though. Uruk and some of the C'Tis are all I can think of. Oh and LA Pythium.

[oddball]

HP and regen on slaves can help but usually not much except in special circumstances.

In a typical large communion with 10+ masters casting spells, once the slaves have reached 200 fatigue each cast will cost each slave 1HP. In other words the slaves are losing 10+HP a turn. A few extra HP is neither here nor there. In a small communion with only 1 or 2 masters an extra HP or two might give you an extra turn or so.

Looking at regen, even an Uruk mage regenerating 3 hp a turn probably only lasts one extra turn in a 10 master communion. On the other hand if you give a slave matrix to a N random Jotun Skratti who casts personal regen, wears a shroud and carries a regen ring, thus regenerating 20hp per turn, you have something that will stand up to 20 masters indefinitely.

[sunbeam]

Originally posted by oddball:

In a typical large communion with 10+ masters casting spells, once the slaves have reached 200 fatigue each cast will cost each slave 1HP. In other words the slaves are losing 10+HP a turn.

?

Usually in my communions the only thing that will give that kind of fatigue is casting some big spell out of path for the slaves, like Firestorm, and the slaves don't have F as a path.

I know when I set up Thunderstrike communions, I'm only getting like 2 to 5 fatigue or so for each Thunderstrike cast.

[oddball]

Originally posted by sunbeam:

Originally posted by oddball:

In a typical large communion with 10+ masters casting spells, once the slaves have reached 200 fatigue each cast will cost each slave 1HP. In other words the slaves are losing 10+HP a turn.

?

Usually in my communions the only thing that will give that kind of fatigue is casting some big spell out of path for the slaves, like Firestorm, and the slaves don't have F as a path.

I know when I set up Thunderstrike communions, I'm only getting like 2 to 5 fatigue or so for each Thunderstrike cast.

Let's say you have 10 masters casting thunderstrike and each cast generates 5 fatigue for each of ten slaves. Ignoring the little bit of reinvigoration the slaves get each turn that's 50 fatigue a turn so after four turns of thunderstrikes your slaves are at 200 fatigue. The next turn your ten masters each cast another thunderstrike. Every single one of those casts costs each slave 1 HP. So if your slaves are 10HP human mages they are dead in that one turn. If you gave them an extra HP then they will live one more turn - but will die the following turn when they lose ten more HP.

If you gave them an extra HP and regen, they still all die the following turn.

[oddball]

Originally posted by sunbeam:

Fatigue past 200 on a communion slave is turned to damage for each 50 further fatigue.

I re-read your post. I think this might be incorrect. This is the damage calculation for a spell cast by a mage who is not in a communion. In a communion I believe the slaves take 1HP damage for any spell (even if the fatigue cost to the slave would only be one!) cast by a master while the slave is at 200 fatigue.

[oddball]

Originally posted by onomastikon:

Hey thanks tons, that spreadsheet is also exceptionally helpful, I think I get it now. ;) Or anyhow better. Cheers!

EDIT: Sometimes Dom5 reds out certain spell choices in my script list, obviously that's not always a good indication of what it takes into account, but why is it doing it here:
- a level 3 mage wants to cast a level 4 spell which costs 100 fatigue and is not in a communion. The mage has 2 gems in inventory. The game un-reds the scripted spell when the mage has 3 gems in her inventory. Shouldn't 2 be enough? The spreadsheet seems to confirm this. Sorry just want to make sure I'm not overlooking something.

I assume that the spell only needs one gem to cast for a caster of the correct level?

If so I have seen things like this occasionally, although usually not on the first scripted spell. I have never really investigated - just sort of assumed that the game is planning to use one of the gems on an earlier spell to reduce fatigue (perhaps to avoid unconsciousness) and therefore you need an extra one to cast the later spell. I also haven't bothered to check and see what happens if you don't provide the extra gem. If you figure this out, please let us know :-)