Anyone else a little disappointed by the repel nerf?

[Pallas' Cataphract]

Anyone who played Dominions 3 will remember how awful pikemen were due to their lack of a shield. Dominions 4 raised the bar by introducing Repel, which allowed pikes to shine due to their huge length.

But now, morale can allow a unit to force past repel for only one point of damage.

Were pikemen seen as overpowered in Dom4? I never heard of that. Spears and pikes Should Be the principal melee weapon in the game, given history. I feel that if Repel is forced past, then it should result in a full attack, not a point of damage, with the difference between weapon lengths conferring a bonus to Attack Skill for the defender.

It's also an idea to give bonuses to repel based on the length of allied weapons in that square, which would make formation fighter a more desireable trait (since right now it makes hoplites prime fireball bait).

[Fortuna]

Nguyên văn bởi TLFT Song of Roland:

The CD fell out of favour because a new technology MP3's and currently streaming that solved the same problem (that of portable music) came into existence. I'm saying that making a big two handed sword was a technological dead end. It wasn't replaced with something better, it was replaced with something they were already using because it proved to be ineffective. CD's were effective for what they did. MP3's were just better at it.

There is the possibility that greatswords were effective at disrupting pike formations, but muskets were just better at it.

[No One]

Also muskets are particularly good at disrupting greatsword formations. Even if it were possible to train a greatswordsman to open up pike formations 100% of the time, you can't train him to not die when shot.

Pike formations dealt with this with raw bodies. Sure they died when shot, but there were six other pikes ready to take revenge while the musket reloads. First, this is not how you want to deal with casualties of expensive highly trained soldiers. Second, you can't, because a close greatsword formation is not a greatsword formation, it's a target rich environment. They can't use their weapons in any way except on each other.

[Imperialus]

Nguyên văn bởi Fortuna:

There is the possibility that greatswords were effective at disrupting pike formations, but muskets were just better at it.

Eventually that is what happened. The difference is that the retirement of pikes took a couple hundred years of slowly increasing the ratio of shot to pikes while the replacement of greatswords took a few decades.

[Fortuna]

Nguyên văn bởi TLFT Song of Roland:

Nguyên văn bởi Fortuna:

There is the possibility that greatswords were effective at disrupting pike formations, but muskets were just better at it.

Eventually that is what happened. The difference is that the retirement of pikes took a couple hundred years of slowly increasing the ratio of shot to pikes while the replacement of greatswords took a few decades.

I've already pointed out how the time frame does not relate to the actual issue. If you want to continue to go in circles, then there is nothing left to add.

[Imperialus]

Nguyên văn bởi Fortuna:

I've already pointed out how the time frame does not relate to the actual issue. If you want to continue to go in circles, then there is nothing left to add.

But the time frame is the entire issue.

Ok, lemme try another way. Imagine it is 1490 The pike block is a military problem. The only available solution was to crash a pike block of your own into it and hope your moral holds out longer than theirs.

Someone comes up with an idea of using greatswords to disrupt the enemy formation by chopping the heads off of pikes or whatever. It seems like it should work so you make a bunch of greatswords, equip your soldiers with them and try it.

Then, for some reason, by the 1530's basically no one is using greatswords anymore. The problem of the pike block still exists. Musketry and artillery did not solve the problem of the pike block. It continues to remain a dominant force on the battlefield until the battle of Rocroi in 1643 when gunpowder weapons finally managed to tip the scales in favour of firepower. Over that time period, yes, the pike began to be replaced by more arquebus' but even in the very late period of the Tercio's dominance you had really only seen a shift from a 80/20 split in favour of pikes to something approaching a 60/40 split. Pikes continued to be used in a more limited capacity until the end of the English Civil War the development of the New Model Army and the adoption of linear warfare in the 1670's that stuck with us until the 19th century.

If time doesn't matter, then why did a weapon that was specifically designed to defeat them not get used for over 100 years?

[Fortuna]

Nguyên văn bởi TLFT Song of Roland:

Then, for some reason, by the 1530's basically no one is using greatswords anymore.

I'll just point out that the "musket"("heavy arquebus") happened to be introduced around 1521.

Nguyên văn bởi TLFT Song of Roland:

If time doesn't matter, then why did a weapon that was specifically designed to defeat them not get used for over 100 years?

Probably because:
1) The musket was better.
2) The musket could specifically counter someone using a greatsword.

Whatever year the musket might have been developed, be it 1521 or 1621 or 1491, has no bearing on how effective or ineffective the greatsword was against pike formations in 1490. In alternate history, if internet and MP3 encoding was not developed until 2100, that would make the CD no better or worse at recording music. You persist at this argument but it is invalid.

Nguyên văn bởi TLFT Song of Roland:

Musketry and artillery did not solve the problem of the pike block.

I think you are conflating "effective against" with "render obsolete." Wooden warships persisted hundreds of years after the development of cannons. Were cannons "ineffective" against wooden warships?

[onard2]

"Long sticks with sharp end" never became obsolete though.

We just call them "rifle with bayonet" nowadays. They've been used in basically every big war from Napoleon to WW I to WW II. Stabbing the enemy with a long pointy stick never gets old.

Why have pike soldiers and shot soldiers when you can have "pike that also shoots" soldiers?

[Fortuna]

Nguyên văn bởi onard2:

"Long sticks with sharp end" never became obsolete though.

We just call them "rifle with bayonet" nowadays. They've been used in basically every big war from Napoleon to WW I to WW II. Stabbing the enemy with a long pointy stick never gets old.

Why have pike soldiers and shot soldiers when you can have "pike that also shoots" soldiers?

Bayonets were obsolete as battlefield weapons in WW I, they were obsolete in WW II, and they certainly obsolete now. Sensible soldiers aren't going to try to *stab* an armed enemy with their AK-47. I'll leave it at that, since this is a Dominions forum.

[ulzgoroth]

I'm actually a bit surprised there isn't a black-powder equipped nation in LE.

Nguyên văn bởi onard2:

"Long sticks with sharp end" never became obsolete though.

We just call them "rifle with bayonet" nowadays. They've been used in basically every big war from Napoleon to WW I to WW II. Stabbing the enemy with a long pointy stick never gets old.

Why have pike soldiers and shot soldiers when you can have "pike that also shoots" soldiers?

Bayonets replaced pikes almost exclusively in the limited role of a thing that lets the shot troops resist a cavalry charge. A firearm with bayonet is a short or at best medium spear, not remotely equal to a pike, and would certainly let a pike line walk right over you if they were allowed into reach without being shot to bits first.

Stabbing the enemy is usually a worse alternative to shooting even at close ranges but in WWI and WWII a rifle bayonet was often the best CQB weapon available to regular infantry - pistols, other handier firearms, and melee weapons weren't general issue and were often enthusiastically collected by troops who did that sort of fighting and could get them.

[freek_o_nature]

Nguyên văn bởi ulzgoroth:

I'm actually a bit surprised there isn't a black-powder equipped nation in LE.

Since you bring it up, I'm curious what people think about "statting" black-powder or other rudimentary firearms. What I mean is, what kind of stats do people think such a weapon (whether we want to call them black-powder rifles, flintlocks, muskets, or whatever else) would have, in comparison to existing ranged weapons like bows, crossbows, and (the ever-controversial) slings? This probably isn't that important to the convo, which has enough going on without me meddling, but I'm curious about how people think such weapons might or could compare! EDIT: I suppose it's possible this has been done in mods I've never seen before, so that might be a good place for me to start. :p

[Imperialus]

Nguyên văn bởi Fortuna:

I think you are conflating "effective against" with "render obsolete." Wooden warships persisted hundreds of years after the development of cannons. Were cannons "ineffective" against wooden warships?

Oh god no... Lets not get into ships. Unless you want to do the same thing about whether or not the Battleship was the 20th century's greatsword :p

Seriously though, I agree with your assessment that we're at a point that we're going to keep talking circles around each other. I concede the last word to you.

I will say that this has been fun, for me at least. Don't get to nerd out about this stuff often. Nice to argue about something relatively silly considering the state of internet discourse these days.

Cheers mate. Maybe catch you in a game at some point.

[Imperialus]

Nguyên văn bởi freek_o_nature:

Nguyên văn bởi ulzgoroth:

I'm actually a bit surprised there isn't a black-powder equipped nation in LE.

Since you bring it up, I'm curious what people think about "statting" black-powder or other rudimentary firearms.

Really, if you were to try and model them off the really early firearms I'd say heavy crossbows with more damage and a longer reload time? Maybe a fear effect to simulate just how unusual they are, though then again, there are battlefield spells that cause metors to fall from the sky and literal man eating giants so maybe the poor SOB's who inhabit the world of Dominions are a bit more used to suffering than us.

The real question would be what can you make it do that a crossbow can't already do?

I suppose an alternate idea might be to make it a piece of field artillery rather than a hand weapon. A 0 combat speed ranged unit that works like one of the giants who throw boulders and gives a massive boost to siege strength?

[onard2]

Nguyên văn bởi Fortuna:

Nguyên văn bởi onard2:

"Long sticks with sharp end" never became obsolete though.

We just call them "rifle with bayonet" nowadays. They've been used in basically every big war from Napoleon to WW I to WW II. Stabbing the enemy with a long pointy stick never gets old.

Why have pike soldiers and shot soldiers when you can have "pike that also shoots" soldiers?

Bayonets were obsolete as battlefield weapons in WW I, they were obsolete in WW II, and they certainly obsolete now. Sensible soldiers aren't going to try to *stab* an armed enemy with their AK-47. I'll leave it at that, since this is a Dominions forum.

On the contrary, sensible armies are still issuing bayonets for their soldiers and said soldiers are still stabbing people now and then. Just go to bayonet's wikipedia article and you can find multiple 2000s examples of USA army soldiers bayonetting people for the win.

Granted it's not their plan A, but sometimes guns do run out of ammo and an enemy is close, so the bayonet is a great plan B.

Nguyên văn bởi ulzgoroth:

I'm actually a bit surprised there isn't a black-powder equipped nation in LE.

Illwinter clearly keeping guns out of dominions. They started appearing a lot of centuries ago but it also took centuries for nations to properly refine mass-production models. They should've started showing up in MA really.

Nguyên văn bởi ulzgoroth:

Bayonets replaced pikes almost exclusively in the limited role of a thing that lets the shot troops resist a cavalry charge. A firearm with bayonet is a short or at best medium spear, not remotely equal to a pike, and would certainly let a pike line walk right over you if they were allowed into reach without being shot to bits first.

Stabbing the enemy is usually a worse alternative to shooting even at close ranges but in WWI and WWII a rifle bayonet was often the best CQB weapon available to regular infantry - pistols, other handier firearms, and melee weapons weren't general issue and were often enthusiastically collected by troops who did that sort of fighting and could get them.

That's half the point. Bayonets are cheap and as long as you're carrying your rifle, it's also a spear, no need to draw another weapon.

Again, bayoneting enemies may not be your plan A in the last couple centuries, but you'll be really glad you have the bayonet as plan B available right away when you run out of ammo and an enemy shows up close. Just like Napoleonic troops were really glad to have bayonets when shooting failed to stop that cavalry charge.

There was also a period where mass bayonet charges could decide a battle if you did it at the right moment.

[Quillithe]

Nguyên văn bởi TLFT Song of Roland:

Maybe a fear effect to simulate just how unusual they are, though then again, there are battlefield spells that cause metors to fall from the sky and literal man eating giants so maybe the poor SOB's who inhabit the world of Dominions are a bit more used to suffering than us.

You know, it is funny to consider exactly how unshakable your units are by things that should probably result in mass rout. You can have a literal angel in your army who is then killed by meteor bombardment (or charmed!) and the militia behind him just shrug and go "Eh, he wasn't in my squad, who cares."

[Fortuna]

Nguyên văn bởi TLFT Song of Roland:

Oh god no... Lets not get into ships. Unless you want to do the same thing about whether or not the Battleship was the 20th century's greatsword :p

Battleships were far too expensive to be just that... :p

Nguyên văn bởi TLFT Song of Roland:

Really, if you were to try and model them off the really early firearms I'd say heavy crossbows with more damage and a longer reload time? Maybe a fear effect to simulate just how unusual they are, though then again, there are battlefield spells that cause metors to fall from the sky and literal man eating giants so maybe the poor SOB's who inhabit the world of Dominions are a bit more used to suffering than us.

It's frankly amazing that any of the poor SOB's are still alive to experience suffering.

Nguyên văn bởi TLFT Song of Roland:

The real question would be what can you make it do that a crossbow can't already do?

Good question, given how murderous crossbows are in the game. They could be difficult to block with shields.

Another question is how to handle line-of-sight.