Anyone else a little disappointed by the repel nerf?

[Pallas' Cataphract]

Anyone who played Dominions 3 will remember how awful pikemen were due to their lack of a shield. Dominions 4 raised the bar by introducing Repel, which allowed pikes to shine due to their huge length.

But now, morale can allow a unit to force past repel for only one point of damage.

Were pikemen seen as overpowered in Dom4? I never heard of that. Spears and pikes Should Be the principal melee weapon in the game, given history. I feel that if Repel is forced past, then it should result in a full attack, not a point of damage, with the difference between weapon lengths conferring a bonus to Attack Skill for the defender.

It's also an idea to give bonuses to repel based on the length of allied weapons in that square, which would make formation fighter a more desireable trait (since right now it makes hoplites prime fireball bait).

[Sombre]

Dominions 3 had repel as well, it just wasn't terribly effective. It also had the morale check to force past the damage.

I don't think saying spears and pikes should be the main weapons because 'history' makes much sense though. Our history is not the history of the dominions world.

[Pallas' Cataphract]

Dominions 5 tries to be a pretty realistic game in a lot of ways; there's no reason why weapons shouldn't behave the same way they did in real life. Just because it's fantasy doesn't mean it should completely throw away logic.

If everyone was only use nations with pikemen I could understand this being an issue. But I don't think that ever happened.

[Alias]

My actual games in both MP and SP show repel is devastating against normal-ish or worse Morale. So I'll say it's good enough. Not to mention it - like Awe - has a brutal synergy with Fear.

[Pallas' Cataphract]

Originally posted by Alias:

My actual games in both MP and SP show repel is devastating against normal-ish or worse Morale. So I'll say it's good enough. Not to mention it - like Awe - has a brutal synergy with Fear.

That's good to hear, though I don't think Repel was changed to be more effective against low morale units, it's just less effective against high morale units.

I also find it odd that lengths were basically compressed; broad swords, short swords and axes all have the same length, which I think is kind of a pity; granularity made things interesting.

[Alias]

Originally posted by Chairkicker:

I also find it odd that lengths were basically compressed; broad swords, short swords and axes all have the same length, which I think is kind of a pity; granularity made things interesting.

Yes, that complexity is gone. At the moment, the thing to consider is the size 3 to size 4length boost, and when to bother deploying it via Army of Giants or Sacreds' bless.

[Althaea]

I strongly approve of the length compression in of itself. I approve a lot less of the repel changes than I used to (but then my approval of them was based on misunderstanding what they were and how they differed from Dominions 4), though.

Previously length-1 weapons were very prone to getting repelled by spears to the point of uselessness unless the attacker was highly skilled and/or had enough morale to essentially ignore repel. Of course, with repel itself having been nerfed this would be much less of an issue.

Ideally I think repel should at least be much more effective against high-morale or mindless targets than it currently is. E.g. if a ghoul ignores the threat of the pikes it's charging through it should probably suffer from that or be prevented from attacking anyway. Perhaps a strength check post-morale to see if the attacker can physically force the enemy's weapon aside and actually deliver a hit, or something along those lines.

[Twogun]

personally, i like to set two lines-one of shielded troops(tower shields if possible) immediately backed by pikes. you have to be careful on movement values so that the pikes don't forge ahead, but once you get it right, it works fairly well.

[Pallas' Cataphract]

Originally posted by alguLoD:

I strongly approve of the length compression in of itself. I approve a lot less of the repel changes than I used to (but then my approval of them was based on misunderstanding what they were and how they differed from Dominions 4), though.

Previously length-1 weapons were very prone to getting repelled by spears to the point of uselessness unless the attacker was highly skilled and/or had enough morale to essentially ignore repel. Of course, with repel itself having been nerfed this would be much less of an issue.

Ideally I think repel should at least be much more effective against high-morale or mindless targets than it currently is. E.g. if a ghoul ignores the threat of the pikes it's charging through it should probably suffer from that or be prevented from attacking anyway. Perhaps a strength check post-morale to see if the attacker can physically force the enemy's weapon aside and actually deliver a hit, or something along those lines.

I'm fine with things getting past repel. I just think they should take more damage for it. Maybe an attack roll is made for only half damage, rather than max 1 hp damage.

I do think longer weapons should be proportionally more effective at repelling. A pike should be a lot better at repelling a dagger than a broadsword. This would also make sure daggers aren't super outclassed by most weapons.

Originally posted by Twogun:

personally, i like to set two lines-one of shielded troops(tower shields if possible) immediately backed by pikes. you have to be careful on movement values so that the pikes don't forge ahead, but once you get it right, it works fairly well.

Does length allow weapons to go past squares? I don't think they do and I've never read of any such mechanic in the series. Melee weapons only go to adjacent square, with ranged weapons being the only ones that cross squares.

[Sombre]

Originally posted by Chairkicker:

Dominions 5 tries to be a pretty realistic game in a lot of ways; there's no reason why weapons shouldn't behave the same way they did in real life.

While I disagree there's no reason, that isn't actually what you said. You said spears and pikes should be the principal weapons, because 'history'. You can have the verisimilitude of a spear behaving like a spear (e.g. it's longer than a sword and does piercing damage) and a pike behaving like a pike (e.g. it's a longer two handed spear) without them being the principal weapons. Spears are already very common weapons in dominions 5 and behave in a pretty spearlike way.

Just because it's fantasy doesn't mean it should completely throw away logic.

Strawman.

[ÆtherNomad]

Originally posted by Chairkicker:

I'm fine with things getting past repel. I just think they should take more damage for it. Maybe an attack roll is made for only half damage, rather than max 1 hp damage.

I do think longer weapons should be proportionally more effective at repelling. A pike should be a lot better at repelling a dagger than a broadsword. This would also make sure daggers aren't super outclassed by most weapons.

I completely agree.

[wilson.max]

Originally posted by Chairkicker:

I'm fine with things getting past repel. I just think they should take more damage for it. Maybe an attack roll is made for only half damage, rather than max 1 hp damage.

I do think longer weapons should be proportionally more effective at repelling. A pike should be a lot better at repelling a dagger than a broadsword. This would also make sure daggers aren't super outclassed by most weapons.

I approve in principle of increasing repel damage, but I find your second paragraph confusing. Wouldn't this make daggers MORE outclassed by other weapons, not less? Did you mean "this would make sure daggers ARE super outclassed by most weapons?"

[Fortuna]

Originally posted by alguLoD:

I strongly approve of the length compression in of itself. I approve a lot less of the repel changes than I used to (but then my approval of them was based on misunderstanding what they were and how they differed from Dominions 4), though.

Previously length-1 weapons were very prone to getting repelled by spears to the point of uselessness unless the attacker was highly skilled and/or had enough morale to essentially ignore repel. Of course, with repel itself having been nerfed this would be much less of an issue.

Yes, the length 1 weapons worked poorly and not just against spears. This hurt the Roman based factions a surprising amount.

Some kind of nerf to pikes was a good idea but I haven't decided if the repel nerf could be better done.

[Pallas' Cataphract]

Originally posted by wilson.max:

Originally posted by Chairkicker:

I'm fine with things getting past repel. I just think they should take more damage for it. Maybe an attack roll is made for only half damage, rather than max 1 hp damage.

I do think longer weapons should be proportionally more effective at repelling. A pike should be a lot better at repelling a dagger than a broadsword. This would also make sure daggers aren't super outclassed by most weapons.

I approve in principle of increasing repel damage, but I find your second paragraph confusing. Wouldn't this make daggers MORE outclassed by other weapons, not less? Did you mean "this would make sure daggers ARE super outclassed by most weapons?"

Sorry, I was unclear about the implication that repel would be kept relatively weak for weapons that are only a little bit longer than daggers, like swords; you would require several points more of repel to start getting reliable and/or deadly repels, as with spears and pikes.

[boozermonkey]

Kind of like the "bringing a knife to a gunfight" analogy, I guess. Pikes > Spears/Lances > Swords/Maces/Clubs > Daggers.

This nerf also affected infantry defence vs. cavalry charge. Historically, Pikeman squares outclassed heavy cavalry charges and this influenced military thinking throughout the 30 years war. Not to mention the absolute dominance of Scottish Chiltroms at Stirling. Given these historical facts, the nerf to repel was both poorly thought out and had a devastating impact on cavalry charge counters.

[Sombre]

Repel never worked well against cavalry in dominions, so whatever you think the nerf is, it isn't related to cavalry charge counters.