Unthematic Sloth/Prod interactions

[ÆtherNomad]

As most know, some commanders (and in mods, items) produce resources. This is for example the case of MA Ulm's mage-smiths, or of Mekone's elder cyclopes.

Until today, I believed that the resources they produce were affected by Sloth/Prod scales. So, for example, an elder cyclops (that normally produces 25 resources) would actually produce 14 resources (-45%) under Sloth 3 and 36 (+45%) under Prod 3.

I was wrong.

These commanders are entirely unaffected by Sloth/Prod scales. As a consequence, it would appear that Production scales are mostly worthless for nations with such commanders, especially if they are spammable (Mekone's probably aren't, so I'll mostly talk about Ulm, but keep in mind that this is also a problem for mod nations). For example, MA Ulm could get Sloth 3 and just spam mage-smiths to increase its resources as if it actually had Prod 3.

Sure, you'd then have problems with expansion because mage-smiths take some time to mass, but that's actually a non-issue because taking Sloth 3 rather than Prod 3 frees up 240 pretender creation points that you just can use to get a monster expander pretender.

The issue with this is two-fold:
1) It is EXTREMELY unthematic for nations such as MA Ulm to be able to work with Sloth. MA Ulm is LITERALLY entirely about the strength of man, the HARD WORK of man. This mechanic has SO unthematic consequences that I'm really wondering if it works as intended.
2) Mechanically, this is very problematic because, if Sloth/Prod scales affected these resources as well, then being able to spam such commanders would keep a fine balance between scales (you can get Sloth for more points, but will still get much less resources than you'd like; and if you pay for Prod scales, you'll actually get something for your money). But in the current situation, it's quite the contrary: such commanders simply destroy the value of Prod scales proportionally to their availability.

Hence, this thread is a suggestion to change the way resource-generation works on monsters and items so that it is affected by Sloth/Prod scales.

[Welzi]

With the same reasoning you could argue for all fix parameters to be influenced by scales. For example why should gem generators not be buffed by magic and drain scales or a monster generator, reanimator etc by growth/death etc. scales. This would make the game much more complicated and twist balance further.

I think master smiths etc are perfectly fine just how they are.

Never forget mates, if it ain't broke do not fix it.

[Zonk]

Originally posted by Welzi:

why should gem generators not be buffed by magic and drain scales

The gemgen ability comes in very small amounts and a scale-based % modifier would work very poorly.
Though I suppose you could make it a % of gaining an extra gem or not gaining one, but that's fairly opaque.

monster generator

Statue of War and Panii spawn Barbarians/Maenads based on Turmoil.
And at least one pretender summons Winter Wolves based on Cold scales.
So we already have examples of scales influencing automatic monster summoning - and that's fine.

EDIT: Some castable spells are stronger with some with scales, too (IIRC, the 'Hidden in X' ones). It makes sense for them, but wouldn't necessarily make sense for *all* spells.

reanimator etc by growth/death etc

These scales already indirectly influence reanimation though:
Death scales -> creates corpses (correct me if wrong), can reanimate as soulless
Growth scales -> more pop you can sacrifice for ghouls (if you really want to)

[Cruxador]

Originally posted by Welzi:

With the same reasoning you could argue for all fix parameters to be influenced by scales. For example why should gem generators not be buffed by magic and drain scales or a monster generator, reanimator etc by growth/death etc. scales. This would make the game much more complicated and twist balance further.

I think master smiths etc are perfectly fine just how they are.

Never forget mates, if it ain't broke do not fix it.

That's different since growth/death and magic/drain don't already work that way. Making production/sloth include +resource effects is closing a loophole and removing an inconsistency (making the interaction of scales and effects no longer work differently if it's gold compared to resources) not adding a new mechanic.

Although in principle, I do think that unit generating effects and spells should consider the relevant scales as freespawn does.

[Welzi]

The gemgen ability comes in very small amounts and a scale-based % modifier would work very poorly.
Though I suppose you could make it a % of gaining an extra gem or not gaining one, but that's fairly opaque.

Absolutely agree to this. It is a fine working mechanic and should not be altered. If one argues it should be changed for thematically reasons than the ability would have to be buffed or redesigned to make it work again. The same point goes for the resource ability imho. If it would allow to be influenced by sloth/prod. then it would be extremely lame or powerful and would have to be most likely redesigned (and not to the better in my view - and that means introducing a complication without a benefit - and no the thematic justification is quite subjective. For example I can perfectly fine think of sloth/production scales affecting the populace of mekone while the elder cyclops franatically produce the weapons to destroy the gods in their volcano even in sloth dominion. Or resources generated stems from tools that need a time to cool down after crafted and that is unaffected by the production of the smiths etc.).

monster generator
Statue of War and Panii spawn Barbarians/Maenads based on Turmoil.
And at least one pretender summons Winter Wolves based on Cold scales.
So we already have examples of scales influencing automatic monster summoning - and that's fine.

Yeah that's true and it is nice there. And every monster generator works different per nation / pretender (think of Yomis spawning rates that just need a dom candle of 1 etc) while the resource ability would cover many nations commanders and differently affecting them...

reanimator etc by growth/death etc
These scales already indirectly influence reanimation though:
Death scales -> creates corpses (correct me if wrong), can reanimate as soulless
Growth scales -> more pop you can sacrifice for ghouls (if you really want to)

And that is too perfectly fine as it is. Prod/Sloth also indirectly affect the resouce generating commanders: You can buy more the higher production values you have and less the more sloth you have.

Ok that's it from me wrt this topic.

Have a great weekend!

Cheers!

[LDiCesare]

Taking Sloth 3 as MA Ulm will slow down your expansion so much that its a bad idea. And what for? I already pick MAgic 3 with PRod 3 as MA Ulm, what would you use the Sloth points for? An awake expander to make up for the slow expansion? Seriously?
I think the OP is completely wrong. Sure, you can take sloth as MA Ulm. You can also not use all your design points if you want.

[Welzi]

Originally posted by LDiCesare:

Taking Sloth 3 as MA Ulm will slow down your expansion so much that its a bad idea. And what for? I already pick MAgic 3 with PRod 3 as MA Ulm, what would you use the Sloth points for? An awake expander to make up for the slow expansion? Seriously?
I think the OP is completely wrong. Sure, you can take sloth as MA Ulm. You can also not use all your design points if you want.

Ok last post here: It is a) not Ulm only but all resource generating commanders, b) even for MA Ulm specifically the master smiths can balance out to some extent taking less than P3 scales (not necessarilly sloth 3 but perhaps S1 or P1 eg) , c) other nations with resource commanders have viable builds with sloth scales or are at the very least not reliant to P3 scales, d) mate I always can put (or at least try ;-)) every design point to good use ;-P.

Cheers

[sunbeam]

Originally posted by LDiCesare:

Taking Sloth 3 as MA Ulm will slow down your expansion so much that its a bad idea. And what for? I already pick MAgic 3 with PRod 3 as MA Ulm, what would you use the Sloth points for? An awake expander to make up for the slow expansion? Seriously?
I think the OP is completely wrong. Sure, you can take sloth as MA Ulm. You can also not use all your design points if you want.

I don't take Sloth (though I can imagine doing it with MA Ulm), but I never take production unless my pretender setup/goals mean I can take that scale like that and paths.

As MA Ulm I find I want money more than anything else. Prod is as good as/better in that regard, but I usually go O3 to minimize those annoying events like barbarian invasions so I won't have to march one province at a time with a slow army to take back.

Whereas with another nation, if barbs take a province, I just send in some SIdhe Lords or Vans. Just doesn't seem like a biggie with nations like that, as opposed to saying: "Okay I got enough guys in this fort to take that back. But it takes 3 rounds to march there. Then I am going to need them back where they came from..."

Actually I think I've taken L over P before. Not sure that really adds much if you have O3, but it really didn't seem like that big a deal either way.

To me G and O are the key scales to play MA Ulm.