Ritual of Rebirth

[Parasol]

I just lost one of my greatest fighter, cowardly stabbed by a bunch of Steel Maidens on the battlefield. This is against what has been written. This cannot be. My wizards are preparing a Ritual of Rebirth...

But here is the issue : the so-called "Hall of fame" says he isn't dead.

Is he dead ? He sure is, but it seems like the grand scheme of things don't accept it. Although I totally agree that the great Tjaste, prophet of Niefelheim, should have never fallen, I worry about the effect of the Ritual of Rebirth if the spell is casted the same day of his death.

Does the Ritual of Rebirth work on fresh corpses ?
Thank you for your help, the nation of Niefelheim needs it.

...also, can I be sure the Ritual will revive my dear Tjaste and not another random hero ?

[terve886]

The ritual of rebirth revives heroes in order from top to bottom in hall of heroes.

[Parasol]

Good to know ! Thank you.

[ÆtherNomad]

What kind of monster was Tjaste? If he has the immortality or dominion immortality ability, then he wouldn't be considered truly dead, as he will come back by himself in a matter of months. Similarly, if he had the Twiceborn spell active on him before his death, then he wouldn't be considered dead and you would already be able to find him in the form of a Wight mage in the province where he had cast the ritual. Similarly, he could have avoided death with the elixir of life item.

Another question to ask yourself would be: how was he killed exactly? If he was just transported to another plane of existence (Kokytos, Hell or the Void), then he wouldn't actually be dead (until one being of these places killed him for good), and you would have to wait more to know his ultimate destiny. The same can also be said if he prevented his death through a ritual of returning or the returning or vortex of returning spell, or even a ring of returning item or Armor of Virtue artifact. Yet another way he could have been "killed" would be through mind control effects, such as the mind control or charm spells (note that there are a bunch of other spells that can do that, but these are the two most common; also not only spells can do that, for example Aboleths can mind control with their regular attacks); again, in that case, he would not be truly dead, he simply wouldn't serve you anymore; although I believe that this actually cannot happen for a prophet, so it must not be the case here.

Short of all these possibilities, then I believe it must be a display bug. Just in case though, I would wait for one full turn before attempting to cast the spell; or alternatively I would try to repeat this situation in single player and see what happens when you cast the spell. If your game is already a singleplayer one, you could even simply duplicate your save file to test it right away.

[Parasol]

Tjaste is a Niefel Giant, so no immortal ability. He was killed by a sword hit on one of his leg from a Steel Maiden.

I should add that he was under multiple magic effects. I used a battle spell that makes dead soldiers on the battlefield rise from the dead immediatly (Life after Death). So as he died, he rised again, then died "again" after a few battle turns.

Note that I also have +3 Undying from a throne.

Originally posted by ÆtherNomad:

Just in case though, I would wait for one full turn before attempting to cast the spell; or alternatively I would try to repeat this situation in single player and see what happens when you cast the spell. If your game is already a singleplayer one, you could even simply duplicate your save file to test it right away.

This is a MP game. Yes this is what I thought about, I will wait a turn at least.
I'll wait the dead to be really dead before attempting any spell on it. Ty

[jojeck]

If it works he should come back as giant mummy with his magical paths including the prophet's H3. But Ritual of Rebirth doesn't work on undead and it is possible that Life after Death turned him into a Soulless and then that stopped the normal process of a cycle of rebirths that the Ritual of Rebirth gives.

[Parasol]

That's painful news ! He turned into a Soulless so I guess I'm screwed.

[Uncle Al]

I thought the 'does not work on undead' text is a bit misleading for ritual of rebirth, as it directly contradicts 'can be used multiple times on the same hero'. I asked about this ages ago and was told it will work on a giant mummy, for example, which it has to or it could never 'be used multiple times'. It won't work on a hero whose initial form was undead though.

I haven't tested it personally and I can't really see how that would work with the way Dominions handles shapes, but I suppose the spell may have a specific exemption for the forms it produces coded into it. Even if it is true it might not work in this case because he became a soulless first, but it's probably worth testing.

On a related note, presumably you can't use twiceborn more than once on the same unit? Something I was meaning to test just to see if it worked anything like ritual of rebirth (which I haven't tested either!).

[Parasol]

So as I understand he didn't died but turned into a Souless before his last "breath", which makes his soul unsuitable for a Rebirth ritual (?). I think there might be a distinction between most undead forms, such as a mummy or a Lich, and the Soulless type. Those are mindless beings, and some rules may prevent them from being subject to a "Rebirth".

[ÆtherNomad]

Indeed, if he became a soulless I would expect Ritual of Rebirth to not work on him anymore (although testing here is required as Uncle AI is right that the description seems to be contradicting itself). But that doesn't explain why the hall of fame doesn't display him as being dead. The reason for this MIGHT be a bugged interaction with either Life after Death or Undying.

[ÆtherNomad]

Originally posted by Uncle Al:

On a related note, presumably you can't use twiceborn more than once on the same unit? Something I was meaning to test just to see if it worked anything like ritual of rebirth (which I haven't tested either!).

It is more that undead beings cannot cast the spell in its vanilla version. However it is possible for each individual monster to have a specific target shape for Twiceborn. So, for example, my mod Hellenika makes Kokythiades return in their original form after they have cast been affected by Twiceborn, basically meaning that the spell only gives them an additional life. Also, it is possible to mod a version of Twiceborn that can be cast even by undead beings.

[jojeck]

The Ritual of Rebirth works on a mummy despite it being undead. The spell description indicates this. In Dom 4 I definitely rebirthed the same hero several times as a mummy, using it as a limited sort of immortality (for 15 D gems). It had the advantage, in Dom 4, of allowing rebirth from inside enemy dominion where immortality didn't work.

In Dom 4 it was possible to rebirth any of your dead HoF commanders including those no longer in the hall of fame (due to others overtaking their position), not sure if this is still true in Dom 5. It probably just checks for the HoF tag and allows rebirth if the commander is either a dead living being or a mummy and ignores other types of dead HoF commanders including unique summons (which can be resummoned anyway).

[Uncle Al]

Originally posted by jojeck:

The Ritual of Rebirth works on a mummy despite it being undead. The spell description indicates this. In Dom 4 I definitely rebirthed the same hero several times as a mummy, using it as a limited sort of immortality (for 15 D gems). It had the advantage, in Dom 4, of allowing rebirth from inside enemy dominion where immortality didn't work.

Didn't know you could use it on a hero who's been knocked off the leaderboard. Thanks for that and for confirming it properly works multiple times.

[Parasol]

Small update : new turn arrived, and he is still "alive" in the Hall of Fame.

[Big Dog]

Sounds like a bug

[Alias]

What the HoF should list is Tjatje's last form (Soulless) with two crosses next to it (once for dying as giant, once for dying as soulless).