On Dragons...

[Twogun]

Ahh fantasy. And the ultimate fantasy unit-the dragon.

How do you folks use them? how do you script? attack rear? simply setting them to attack has them plodding along the ground, but attack rear makes use of their wings.

but then, if you attack rear, can you cast spells? because i can't figure that out. your stuck with dragon breath and claws at that point! which isn't all bad.

[sunbeam]

Really not keen on dragons. Sometimes they have the path you are looking for, but they only make sense really as expanders.

But they have this big problem: they don't natively get recuperation. The Nature dragon can get it pretty easily, but not the others. And they are going to get afflictions when you use them as an expander.

Dunno, maybe taking awe on the fire dragon might really work well?

If you are using your pretender to expand, they just aren't as good at it as Snek (or some other monster pretenders).

They need something else I think. Awe to go along with the fear, or just give them recuperation. Actually I don't think any expander works without recuperation, barring a few odd ones that are immortal or have some trick to their chasis.

So honestly I think they are a pretender without a niche. Not really good expanders, hard to get multiple magic paths on them, and if you have them dormant or imprisoned why take that chasis in the first place?

Snek on the other hand, is a machine. Just keeps on trucking, province after province. Underwater, underground, outside his dominion, he just keeps going.

[boozermonkey]

Originally posted by sunbeam:

Really not keen on dragons. Sometimes they have the path you are looking for, but they only make sense really as expanders.

But they have this big problem: they don't natively get recuperation. The Nature dragon can get it pretty easily, but not the others. And they are going to get afflictions when you use them as an expander.

Dunno, maybe taking awe on the fire dragon might really work well?

If you are using your pretender to expand, they just aren't as good at it as Snek (or some other monster pretenders).

They need something else I think. Awe to go along with the fear, or just give them recuperation. Actually I don't think any expander works without recuperation, barring a few odd ones that are immortal or have some trick to their chasis.

So honestly I think they are a pretender without a niche. Not really good expanders, hard to get multiple magic paths on them, and if you have them dormant or imprisoned why take that chasis in the first place?

Snek on the other hand, is a machine. Just keeps on trucking, province after province. Underwater, underground, outside his dominion, he just keeps going.

Almost none of that is really true, or exclusive to Dragons.

The Fire Dragon can take Awe natively.
The Frost Dragon can take Defence and Quickness natively.
The Poison Dragon can take Regeneration natively.
All three dragons fly and have superior MM.

All three dragons get super powered massive AoE breath weapons and fear.
All three dragons have above average defence and superior protection. All three dragons have SC HPs, MR, Attack, and etc. etc.

Dragons are arguably the most superior pretenders of choice for Arco and Ur when going with an awake SC expander. Both of these nations have easy access to either really good affliction healers, or superior God Call, making them far more efficient at keeping your SC pretender on the battlefieild wreaking havoc on your enemies.

With Dom 5, Dragons now also get dragon master. This combined with a couple of items opens the possibility of fielding summoned dragons in respectable numbers.

For certain nations, Dragon pretenders are certainly a superior choice.

In terms of scripting. In the first year when expanding you script Hold x3, Attack Rear. The dragon will do the rest and take provinces effortlessly. Once you get Alteration 1-3 online, you can script your dragon to cast a defensive spell, hold, then attack rear. In mid and late game, your dragon will most likely be in more of a support SC role, so scripting is more complex. You will want to have it buff some of your troops and then maybe go on the offensive.

In terms of Dragon effectiveness. I recently completed a game vs. 6 Impossible AI. The dragon at the end has 692 kills. That one was, by a huge margin, the single most combat effective SC pretender I have ever had. In comparison, the Earth Snake in another game with UR had less than 200 kills in the end. It was not even in the top 10 list. Believe it or not, the sacred cow - kamedu I think its name is - came in second at 387 kills in a Patela game.

[protokevin]

I tried a dragon for the first time a day or two ago when testing pretenders for a game, and I was honestly kind of amazed at the fire dragon. Not just because awe+fear is really effective, but the fire breath attack actually looks so much better than I was expecting it to!

I don't know yet if it's the pretender I'll be going with (I tend to favour mid-late game diversity picks for my gods) but it was certainly one of the most satisfying!

As for scripting, yeah, hold x3 (x2 if it was a cavalry province, which I might have been more worried about attacking if it wasn't a test game, I don't know yet) and attack rear was all I used. Nothing fancy.

[Ivory Knight]

What's about Azi? Isn't he's just straight up better fire dragon?

[boozermonkey]

Originally posted by Jerk of all trades:

What's about Azi? Isn't he's just straight up better fire dragon?

All the dragons are good. Even the oriental ones are decent.

[Noble Ten]

I modded Dargons to be stronger, The true Mythical creatures they should be. Namely, a bit more tougher armor (cuase its scale duh) and a bit more health. and a few minor abilties since they are dragons.

[Surrealialis]

I considered modding dragons to have an auto cast for the cloud spell of v their element. (Poison cloud etc) but they really do an excellent job expanding. Just don't know what to do after that point

[Ninjara]

I may be a bit biased but I think they're juuuust fine. Particularly the aforementioned Awe + Fear combo that really puts some healthy respect into the people you're frying/freezing/poisoning.

Plus if you can make them, you can slap a few Copper Arms onto them for that frost brand & vine shield combo.. but then you'll have to live with the mental image of that.

[Sad Cat]

Originally posted by Lucindra:

I may be a bit biased but I think they're juuuust fine. Particularly the aforementioned Awe + Fear combo that really puts some healthy respect into the people you're frying/freezing/poisoning.

Plus if you can make them, you can slap a few Copper Arms onto them for that frost brand & vine shield combo.. but then you'll have to live with the mental image of that.

So Trogdor, then?

[Twogun]

sunbeam, who is 'snek'?? do you mean earth serpent?

[ÆtherNomad]

Yes, it's what he means. In dom 4, the Earth Serpent was so absurdly strong that he became kind of a meme. Everyone started calling him Erf Snek, as he was the mindless choice, always viable for almost every nation, sometimes even the only truely reasonable choice.

In dom 5, he was nerfed A LOT. I'm not sure whether he's still viable.

[sunbeam]

Originally posted by Oneyr:

Yes, it's what he means. In dom 4, the Earth Serpent was so absurdly strong that he became kind of a meme. Everyone started calling him Erf Snek, as he was the mindless choice, always viable for almost every nation, sometimes even the only truely reasonable choice.

In dom 5, he was nerfed A LOT. I'm not sure whether he's still viable.

I think his base is like 240 points now. With the changes to how effective protection is when fatigued he's actually more effective than ever at his job - early game expansion, including underwater with no need for construction. Where he got nerfed was in his base cost (well compared to Dom 4, not his peers).

I've tried the dragons a number of times. They ALWAYS pick up an affliction. Maybe it is because probably over half my games have been in LA. But I've found there is always that province with a lot more heavy cav than you thought.

I

[Twogun]

i'm testing one now when i get a chance. he DID pick up an affliction early, but it was -4 strength, which is pretty minor. he has been really effective as an expander, and the flying MM is very useful.

beyond the early game, though, he might be a bit of let down.

[Ninjara]

Originally posted by Squish Cat:

So Trogdor, then?

Shhh before someone makes a pretender mod for that!

[MattStriker]

Originally posted by Lucindra:

Originally posted by Squish Cat:

So Trogdor, then?

Shhh before someone makes a pretender mod for that!

Hmm. So who would get him? Abysia, obviously, are all about burninating already, so they'd be a good fit. Marignon, possibly?