Graphics and sprite size

[Smiling Spectre]

As I see, developers are actively participating in _this_ forum, so I will ask my old question.

My main complain about Dominions series is too small sprites. As it is hardcoded since Dom2, with 8x8 smallest sprite and 128x128 biggest one, I see not much ways to enhance it. There is hardly possible to draw many highly distinct 8x8 sprites, and even standard 32x32 is too little to be really detailed.

But could it be possible to mechanically double hardcoded sprite size in game? I mean, change needed sizes one level up - 8x8 to 16x16, 32x32 to 64x64 and 128x128 to 256x256?

I think, it's the simpliest way to lay canvas for graphic improvement, as for first party, as for modding. It doesn't need any human resources to make the change - you can simply scale 2x all your pictures to get exactly the same visuals as before change - but you can later detail it more, if you need it. Only possible drawback I see is 4x amount of graphics that needs to be drawn during battle replays... But with current video power it's not much, right? So can it be done, please, or are there some underwater reefs that I cannot see?

[Sombre]

So you're asking for this for the benefit of modders who want to make more detailed sprites?

[Smiling Spectre]

Originally posted by Sharkspeare aka Sombre:

So you're asking for this for the benefit of modders who want to make more detailed sprites?

First at all, I am not modder, but player. And graphics is the most weak spot of series for me.

I heard thousands times that developers haven't time and resources to re-drawn current graphics. And I can agree with it. Well, ok.

But I am totally sure that in current state graphic cannot be enhanced much on the core level (except some minor changes here and there). And it shows, for some sprites that are the same as it was in early 2000s. Making sprites bigger will immediately open space for modders, and _maybe_ will open possibilities to integrate better graphics in the core game later. Actually, as there is no hope for enhanced graphics from authors, I could live with external mod for replacing vanilla graphics... but it can be nothing right now, by design. So the request.

[Sombre]

I'm not sure you'd get what you want, really.

I have previously made a mod to improve some old unit graphics in dominions games (think of e.g. the Niefel Giant) which were from the dominions 2 era, but that was only a handful of graphics. Improving existing sprites with 4x the pixels would be more work than that and you're talking about hundreds and thousands of sprites in total for a pretty marginal graphical improvement.

[Phyvo]

I'm not sure why you think your proposal will solve your complaint. In Dom 4 Illwinter already upped the ante on graphics. and even though artistic modders were fully capable of matching that ante we still have ugly-arse cyclopses, lobo guards, were-jags, and tomb wyrms. Because, like Illwinter, modders wanted to make new nations, not make old nations look good. So the problem is obviously one of time, organization, and motivation. None of which have anything to do with canvas size.

If you want Dom 5 to have better graphics then closest real solution is for Illwinter to actually hire an artist or two to bring all the outdated sprites in line with the rest of the game. First rule of game aesthetics: have a consistent style. I've played several games now where I've thought that people's "these graphics suck" complaints are really complaints about crappy or inconsistent art direction.

[Smiling Spectre]

Originally posted by Phyvo:

I've played several games now where I've thought that people's "these graphics suck" complaints are really complaints about crappy or inconsistent art direction.

Well, when there are half-decent size (and we talk about 32x32 and up) you can be right. Partially right, because still, in _such_ dimensions it's more imagination of viewer than actual picture, regardless of artist's talents. But both lesser sizes are hopeless. So in my eyes canvas size is primary here - it's hardly possible to beautify picture, if you literally haven't even spare pixels for that.

[ÆtherNomad]

Originally posted by Smiling Spectre:

in _such_ dimensions it's more imagination of viewer than actual picture

I actually love that and don't want it to change.

Of course, it doesn't mean I dislike your idea. Allowing modders to use larger sprites is interesting.

[Smiling Spectre]

Originally posted by Sharkspeare aka Sombre:

I'm not sure you'd get what you want, really.

Maybe. But right now I haven't even _base_ for what I want.

Improving existing sprites with 4x the pixels would be more work than that and you're talking about hundreds and thousands of sprites in total for a pretty marginal graphical improvement.

I don't think that 2x quality is "marginal improvement". Picture was totally enough for me and even great when I had 800x600 monitor. I hadn't much complains on 1024 too. My old 1280 already made picture look dated, and on current 1920 it's simply old. As you can see, linear scaling 2.5x leads to subjective aging of picture. So, theoretically speaking, 2x enhance can rise it back to old level. Well, almost, but still.
And again - right now major enhancement simply impossible, as sizes hardcoded, and there are only so much ways you can arrange 32x32 pixels (expecially if you don't draw new one, but re-draw old). That infinitely worse than "possible to enhance if you'll found right artists".

[Sombre]

Hmm. I'm a bit confused because you refer to not having a base for what you want, but you demonstrably wouldn't get what you want even if you did, so why does that matter?

I mean say all canvases were doubled in size. What then? You wait for modders to do a massive amount of work they're extremely unlikely to do?

[Sombre]

Originally posted by Phyvo:

I'm not sure why you think your proposal will solve your complaint. In Dom 4 Illwinter already upped the ante on graphics. and even though artistic modders were fully capable of matching that ante we still have ugly-arse cyclopses, lobo guards, were-jags, and tomb wyrms.

Not that I disagree with you, but there is a mod to improve the Tomb Wyrm here:

http://z7.invisionfree.com/Dom3mods/index.php?showtopic=3680

[Smiling Spectre]

Originally posted by Sharkspeare aka Sombre:

Hmm. I'm a bit confused because you refer to not having a base for what you want, but you demonstrably wouldn't get what you want even if you did, so why does that matter?

Well, actually, I know amateur pixel artist or two, so I asked them before. :) They said basically what I said: it's impossible to significantly enhance sprite without changing it's size - and size cannot be changed.

So any arguments, pleas and demands will be futile, until Illwinter increase sprite size. So step one: increase sprite size. :)

[Phyvo]

You didn't address Sombre's argument at all. You're not listening. How many times do we have to spell things out for you?

If Illwinter doesn't increase sprite size, nothing will happen.
If Illwinter increases sprite size, you'll get to rub your hands with glee and then watch as nothing happens, because no one in their right mind wants to redraw OVER 3000 SPRITES. Not Illwinter, because their game is selling without it and they are a two person programmer team with no full time artist, and not the modders, because we're not getting paid and have other things to do with our lives.

Next time you should show your friends the sprite dump[z7.invisionfree.com] or the mod inspecter[larzm42.github.io] and ask them how long it would take and how much they would charge for redrawing everything at 2x the size. Because there's no way that crap is going to happen magically for free even if the game "supports" it. The sprite dump I linked doesn't even contain everything because I decided to link an older one that's actually sorted and easier to look through.

[Smiling Spectre]

Originally posted by Phyvo:

You didn't address Sombre's argument at all. You're not listening. How many times do we have to spell things out for you?

Um. Do we need to go offensives? This is two player game. I can just say "you are not listening" too. And no, if you think that you said something new to me - you are wrong. :)

If Illwinter increases sprite size, you'll get to rub your hands with glee and then watch as nothing happens, because no one in their right mind wants to redraw OVER 3000 SPRITES. Not Illwinter, because their game is selling without it and they are a two person programmer team with no full time artist, and not the modders, because we're not getting paid and have other things to do with our lives.

Aha, so now you convincing me that there is no graphic modders at all, and Illwinter cannot hire extra artists too. While I cannot argue with second statement - I simply don't know - first one looks flawed.

And your fundamental flaw is that you state as if it needed to be change _at once_. No. Of course, in most cases, if I'll put my requests _this_ way, it will end as it ends every time with this discussion: "no one will redraw 3000 sprites, so it NEVER WILL BE CHANGED, deal with it!" I heard it at least five times for this years, thank you. And, well, practice is totally prove this point of view, cementing the error.

So I tried to go opposite way and found artists on my end who can redraw this things bit-by-bit. All units for one nation. All 8x8 units. Most ugly ones. Etc. It miserably failed, because, well, sprite size is _hardcoded_, so nothing can be done on user side before this will change.

So we have typical vicious circle: no sprites can be redone because of size of canvas -> no one will redone the sprites -> there is no need to change canvas at all -> sprite cannot be redone because of size of canvas. I want to broke it. It can work or it can fail. I have no idea. But right now I cannot even attempt to do anything, as my every complain of graphics hit the double wall "there are too many graphics" and "it cannot be changed anyway".

But well, if it's typical fan reaction, I am starting to understand why graphics never changed in 16 years.

[Sombre]

Originally posted by Smiling Spectre:

right now I cannot even attempt to do anything, as my every complain of graphics hit the double wall "there are too many graphics" and "it cannot be changed anyway".

See this is why I asked my very first question.

Are you saying that if sprite canvas size were changed you would then do something? As in, you would redraw the sprites? Because that's a very different proposition from 'modders would do something'.

[Sombre]

Originally posted by Smiling Spectre:

So I tried to go opposite way and found artists on my end who can redraw this things bit-by-bit. All units for one nation. All 8x8 units. Most ugly ones. Etc. It miserably failed, because, well, sprite size is _hardcoded_, so nothing can be done on user side before this will change.

Wait so just so we're clear, you asked artists (I assume professional) to assess/sample graphical improvement to dominions sprites and they failed miserably in your estimation?

Did you point them to the sprites that were limited by a smaller canvas historically and haven't been updated (like the cyclops etc)? What happened with those?

[Mount Nomad]

Folks tend to get heated on both sides of the graphics issue, and often rude as a result, so it's kind of an icky subject. It's understandable, as the same question's been getting asked for years and the same answer's typically been, "Nope."

I've been part of projects where hundreds of unit skins have been upgraded incrementally (Total Annihilation / Total Annihilation Spring had something like 20,000 units with more being created all the time), and basically everyone who worked on them were hobbyists (though some had "real jobs" in those fields), so the question of increasing pixel density seems reasonable.

That said, Spectre, the question would probably have more traction from an experienced sprite artist directly. Maybe try your hand at a sprite sheet?