Why does Trample ignores Awe now?

[joinone_pei]

Ain't we suppose to have awe as a counter to low morale units like... the elephants?
Isn't trample suppese to be an armor piercing attack, which is an attack that awe should be able to work against?
If it's a bug, why nothing has been done after it being reported in the bug list twice?
And if it's a feature, is there any specific reason to change this historic interaction, imo for the worse?

[Fortuna]

Originally posted by boozermonkey:

Realistically, Awe should only work against things intelligent enough to be awed by whatever it is about the unit that is so awesome.

Awe is a supernatural force. I don't understand how you are applying realism to it. Animals are frequently described as acknowledging divinity in mythology and fantasy -- sometimes even better than humans.

[boozermonkey]

Originally posted by Fortuna:

Originally posted by boozermonkey:

Realistically, Awe should only work against things intelligent enough to be awed by whatever it is about the unit that is so awesome.

Awe is a supernatural force.

Looking through the Dom5 manual, I don't see that anywhere in the descriptions.

"Awe Units with Awe force enemies to take a morale check against 10 + Awe in order to be able to attack them. Thus, a unit with Awe +4 would force attackers to pass a morale check against 14, or be awestruck and unable to attack the awe-inspiring monster on that combat round. There is a special kind of Awe called Sun Awe which does not work underground, or when it is dark."

You make an assumption about this ability as if its fact. I simply conjectured with an opinion.

[Devin]

Well look at it this way, if you can step on something, you probably aren't impressed by it.

[ÆtherNomad]

Originally posted by boozermonkey:

You make an assumption about this ability as if its fact. I simply conjectured with an opinion.

His assumption is actually great. The whole part you didn't quote in his message is very coherent both with dominions' lore and with the way Illwinter developed the game (by systematically taking inspiration in real world mythologies, religions and iconographies). There is absolutely no reason to doubt that animals should be vulnerable to awe, since there are plenty of reasons to justify it already.

[ÆtherNomad]

Originally posted by joinone_pei:

At least Animal awe should have effects against all animals right? They are tramplers not beserkers there should be a difference.

I completely agree. If a particular animal is supposed to be immune to awe, giving it berserker is enough. A given animal should potentially be at the same time a trampler and vulnerable to awe. Berserker already exists to account for cases where animals would be immune to awe.

[boozermonkey]

Originally posted by Oneyr:

His assumption is actually great.

"Great", wonderful, bad or otherwise, an assumption is an assumption. Its not fact. For all anyone knows, it could be complete fantasy. Its one thing to opine on something, but quite another to post misleading comments, or statements that could mislead new players into thinking something about the game that is not factually correct.

I posted the sum total of what the Dom5 manual says on the subject. Anything outside of those facts is conjecture.

There is nothing wrong with posting opinions. There is nothing wrong with conjecturing, IMO. Attacking my post on something as dumb as this is disengenuous.

[Cruxador]

Originally posted by boozermonkey:

Realistically, Awe should only work against things intelligent enough to be awed by whatever it is about the unit that is so awesome.

This is already the case; mindless beings are functionally immune to awe.

[joinone_pei]

Themetically let's say a size 6 spider and a size 6 elephant. Only because they attack differently determines if awe works on it or not. Fair? I don't think so.

Similarily, if an ability says “Very difficult to hit with non-magical weapons. 75% of such strikes will miss” and another says "Units with Awe force enemies to take a morale check against 10 + Awe in order to be able to attack them," which one do you guess work againts trample? Is it fair?

[Fortuna]

Originally posted by boozermonkey:

Looking through the Dom5 manual, I don't see that anywhere in the descriptions.

"Awe Units with Awe force enemies to take a morale check against 10 + Awe in order to be able to attack them. Thus, a unit with Awe +4 would force attackers to pass a morale check against 14, or be awestruck and unable to attack the awe-inspiring monster on that combat round. There is a special kind of Awe called Sun Awe which does not work underground, or when it is dark."

From what part of this do you conclude that it would be unrealistic for an animal (or whatever intelligence) to be unaffected by Awe?

Originally posted by Fortuna:

You make an assumption about this ability as if its fact. I simply conjectured with an opinion.

I don't see how this is a fair representation; your conjecture sounds as definite as mine. But I can expand and rephrase:

From the types of units which have Awe (angels, semi-divine beings, beautiful forest spirits), I conjecture that Awe does not represent a real-world phenomenon, but a fictional supernatural one. Therefore, we should not critique the game mechanics of Awe from the point of how realistic they are. Rather, we should discuss if the mechanics are consistent with the lore and produce a desirable game effect.

[Fortuna]

Originally posted by boozermonkey:

"Great", wonderful, bad or otherwise, an assumption is an assumption. Its not fact. For all anyone knows, it could be complete fantasy. Its one thing to opine on something, but quite another to post misleading comments, or statements that could mislead new players into thinking something about the game that is not factually correct.

I posted the sum total of what the Dom5 manual says on the subject. Anything outside of those facts is conjecture.

There is nothing wrong with posting opinions. There is nothing wrong with conjecturing, IMO. Attacking my post on something as dumb as this is disengenuous.

I think this is a bit silly. Apparently, I am leading new players astray by saying that Awe represents something otherworldly. And I am being "disengenuous" by saying that realism doesn't apply? I didn't "attack" your post, but you seem to be attacking my character.

[Sombre]

Man boozermonkey you are being way too prickly in my opinion.

Awe does seem largely supernatural in dominions. If you take a look at the units with awe in the mod inspector they're almost all divine/celestial/supernatural and usually their descriptions reflect that.

But say you don't consider that a reasonable statement to make. OK. That doesn't make it misleading, just subjective.

[boozermonkey]

Originally posted by Sharkspeare aka Sombre:

Man boozermonkey you are being way too prickly in my opinion.

Awe does seem largely supernatural in dominions. If you take a look at the units with awe in the mod inspector they're almost all divine/celestial/supernatural and usually their descriptions reflect that.

But say you don't consider that a reasonable statement to make. OK. That doesn't make it misleading, just subjective.

I agree Shark. In any case, this has got out of hand. Were arguing over what the definition of is , is.

In fact now I think on it, I agree that awe may be supernatural and it may not. Who really cares?

[Rope Man]

Originally posted by boozermonkey:

Originally posted by Oneyr:

I disagree. Animal awe exists. It means that animals are actually MORE vulnerable to awe than human beings.

Animal awe is Pied Piper kind of stuff. For Pangea it has to do with that nations affinity with nature and animals. Kailasa sacreds specifically talk about how awesome their units are, not sure why an Elephant, wolf or moose would be so awed by them, but I guess it all comes out in the wash.

There's a story about the Buddha halting a rampaging elephant with his awesomeness alone.

[Silence]

In the same way Awe doesn't work with trampling units, neither do work the petrification power of the gorgon nor the entanglement power of the vine shield (and I believe it's the same with eye shield too).

[joinone_pei]

Originally posted by silence:

In the same way Awe doesn't work with trampling units, neither do work the petrification power of the gorgon nor the entanglement power of the vine shield (and I believe it's the same with eye shield too).

Ah I noticed the entanglement thing several days ago and didn't look carefully into it... That's really a lot of stuff...