Bless Large ?

[Noble Ten]

I played some Dom 4, but I know theres tons people who would know the game better than me still and give better opinions.

So basicly want to know some opinions how useful the Bless Large is. Its 5 or so Earth and 3 Naturel points.

Would people use it or consider it ? Is it actually a good bless ?

Well I been meaning to start a game as MA Man, Havent decided if I'd focus on blessed stuff since another thread I made people said their sacreds are pretty bad for reasons that wasnt explained why. Even tho they look good with heavy armor and 2-handed swords. But for now I just been looking at my options between Blesses and scales. Large seemed interesting but I cant rate it.

[Danksama]

Larger, as far as I know, isn't really worth it for the cost and can be more of a detriment

[Twogun]

i wonder if it'd be worth it on flagellants?

[Red_Rob]

Large has the problem that you are usually reducing the number of units you can fit into a square, which allows enemies to gang up on you. In return you get some stat bonuses, but nothing earth shattering.

For most sacreds the trade off isn't worth it, but for tramplers or giants that aren't size 6 you would be avoiding most of the penalty, so it might be worth it there.

[bla0815]

To reiterate Red_Rob: Unless used on size 4&5 (where you get a lot of stats for your buck), you often get less damage per square and even less effective HP per square by making your units larger.
However you do get more damage and hp per army, gold and holy points, so i wouldn't call it a net loss. If let's say your expansion party is vastly outnumbered anyways, all your units can use their attack (with increased strength) every round, triggering morale checks. You still need to tank though, but larger does help with that.
Speaking of expansion: Having a broader formation helps against flanking. But of course there are other ways to do this than making your units larger...

Most importantly though: Thugs don't care for troop density and not much for one point of defense when they are alone. But they care very much for HP and strength is at least nice to have.
---

How does formation fighter work exactly? Maybe heart companions don't suffer from size 3 as much? MA Arco can search for E and N, but doesn't have a high path for rituals in both...

Also EA Abysia. Burning ones are only size 3, but are bad formation fighters and therefore 1 per square anyways.. Having extra HP with high prot is extra nice and they in part deal damage by getting hit, so increasing tankiness also increases the expected damage output per unit (not killing power per turn though) and they have abysmal defense anyways. Again Abysia can search for E (and N ist at least the easiest to find mages for), while not having high paths in it (They also work synergistic with barkskin btw - another seemingly meh bless).

Maybe on ranged units? They don't care that much about density and HP aren't irrelevant in archer duels and shielding your mages from flyers/flankers. Doesn't sound too convincing yet, just an idea.

[Uncle Al]

It's struck me as very niche. Stacking it with regeneration on already large sacreds might have some milage, but that means taking N10 which is hellaciously expensive.

Most of the things that will kill a 66hp niefel giant regenerating 7hp a round will still kill an 84hp one regenerating 9, wheras for the same points you could have added some fire resistance or the like, or blood bond, which I think provide better returns.

Burning ones do seem a strong contender for getting something out of larger, as they're in the unique position of being 1 to a square size 3 units, and thus the only unit in the game that benefits for the +1 weapon length you get from going from size 3 to 4 without losing troop density. As they have abysmal defence and very good attack, being able to actually repel the odd hit might be useful.

The other niche case I can think of is MA/LA R'lyeh, as a fair few of the weaker void gate summons are size 1 and size 4 tramplers, but I still don't think they're common enough to justify it.

[Nrak555]

How has no one pointed out marverni's sacred trampling freespawn Great Boars they go from size 3 to size 4 which is really good for their trampling

[Mormacil]

Originally posted by nrak555:

How has no one pointed out marverni's sacred trampling freespawn Great Boars they go from size 3 to size 4 which is really good for their trampling

Because the one jump in size still isn't a great deal for the cost of the bless.

[Kref]

Originally posted by nrak555:

How has no one pointed out marverni's sacred trampling freespawn Great Boars they go from size 3 to size 4 which is really good for their trampling

Yes, this reduces trampling damage to you and can enhance or make possible your own trampling damage.
Your human priest with boots of behemoth would be able to trample enemies. You can make yet another size boost with artefact or/and spell, do not know if the effects are stackable thou.
If you increase your troops from size 3 to size 4 it might be a good idea to add human-sized fighters in a troop that a six-size square would be filled.
Generally it is a good bless if you feel like your sacredss need bouth hp and melee damage increased.

[Fortuna]

There are a few problems with Enlarge:

1) It does nothing for size 6 units.

2) You get the full drawbacks of being larger, but often not an appropriate level of stat increase. A typical size 2 unit gets a few hp, but falls short of the hp of typical size 3 units by quite a bit.

3) Going from size 3 to size 4 is generally a curse (and you can't exempt any sacreds from the effect).

4) It costs 5E3N... which is not only expensive but also makes it difficult to stack with synergizing effects like Regeneration and Fortitude.

What it does best:

1) Increase the size of size 5 units to 6, making them immune to trample from elephants and elementals. To a lesser degree, smaller units benefit by getting some "trample resistance."

2) Increase the size of the few trampling sacreds.

3) Give decent stat bonuses to size 4/5 units.

It might be fun, but is it worth it? Seems incredibly niche.

[Cruxador]

Originally posted by Red_Rob:

For most sacreds the trade off isn't worth it, but for tramplers or giants that aren't size 6 you would be avoiding most of the penalty, so it might be worth it there.

On giants you're better off going with regeneration.

Originally posted by Mormacil:

Because the one jump in size still isn't a great deal for the cost of the bless.

It's pretty cheap on the thrice-horned boar. If you count everything together I think it's reasonably worthwhile.

[Fortuna]

Forgot to mention -- it also makes your sacreds more resistant to killing rituals (Seeking Arrow, Fires from Afar).

[Uncle Al]

Originally posted by Fortuna:

There are a few problems with Enlarge:


2) You get the full drawbacks of being larger, but often not an appropriate level of stat increase. A typical size 2 unit gets a few hp, but falls short of the hp of typical size 3 units by quite a bit.

It has occurred to me that it might have a lot more applications if the hp increase was a flat bonus although to match the kind of improvement you see between size 2 and 3 troops you're looking at something like +12 hp and +5 str (from a very quick sampling of Dai Bakemono, Enkidu and Cavemen)

[Redvenge]

Monster Toads. Not every nation gets them, but for 8 Nature gems you get three size 5 sacred, trampling, poison cloud 5, poison skin 20 toads. They are slow and have terrible defences, but they seem spammable (at least, on the map settings I use).

Of course, this is about as niche as it gets, so this is more an exercize in theorycrafting than support of Enlarge bless.

[Fortuna]

Originally posted by Redvenge:

Of course, this is about as niche as it gets, so this is more an exercize in theorycrafting than support of Enlarge bless.

The trouble with Monster Toads is that you really want something that keeps them alive instead of something that basically only lets them trample some kinds of giants and do a couple more points of damage.

[amuys]

On MA Agartha's statues, it stacks immensely well.