Vanguard seem very weak most game, but mostly early

[Kanjejou]

Personally every time i retry vanguard i feel very weak, i dont feel the tankiness of dvar, the debuff of amazon, the healing of assembly, the psy electro of syndicat, the kyr'ko support sniper and bio damages...

Vanguard lack a good early unit i mean a T1 T2 unit,
TROOPER dont hit nor tank nor have cool skill (melee nades? really?) overwatch is nice but very easy to deny or avoid.
OWL look nice but are frail, weak and don't even buff enough.
PUG is a dissapointement 2 of its skill are one use only and the smoke is mono target thus usally the unit smoked will get ignored, look super nice though.
SAPPER lack something the turret is all right the mono heal is meh, the buff is meh because its not as powerfull or as durable as other army buff and finish your turn.
BIKE got no side armor thus is a flanker that get double ♥♥♥♥ed by flank attacks...
First plane is good but by the time we get them you already are struggly with doomstack.

the vanguard early game truly suffer...

what is strange is that they got lots of support butt hey don't synergise with any play style...


Most dvar unit go on the "get cover" get accuracy and deny ennemies cover thought moral crit or blowing it up.

Amazon is all about buff and debuff blind poison shield self healing ect...

Kir'ko is also very synergising with swarm shield psy smoke, psy "nicentrop" with share pain skill.

Assembly is all about kill get killed and don't even care

Syndicat get excellent damage type and support units that both help in attack and def...

I play quite a bit all faction and vanguard i can't seem to get behind if i don't doomstack RNG

[AnemoneMeer]

Troopers are one of the strongest T1's. Grenades afford an AoE stagger option, which is not available to other races besides amazons, and theirs does no damage, and are also great at clearing out cover. they aren't meant to take a lot of damage, but their ability to hit for 27 damage before defenses makes them one of the deadlier options. Their overwatch is also extremely potent.

PUGs are excellent. They heal, they resupply, and the evasion buff is designed so that you can throw it on a unit who is rushing the enemies cover. Evade buff a trooper who runs up, grenades, the enemies get staggered and their cover explodes, then your firing line tears them to ribbons and what little remains can't seal the deal on your trooper.

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A lot of this is not really grasping how Vanguard bio plays. Namely, you're a firing line faction. Advance slowly, cover to cover, interlinked overwatches. Then clear the enemy cover with grenades and wipe them out in a hailstorm of bullets. Nades cancel defensive stance AND clear cover, leaving enemies primed for heavy damage from long range.

[Kanjejou]

Originally posted by AnemoneMeer:

Troopers are one of the strongest T1's. Grenades afford an AoE stagger option, which is not available to other races besides amazons, and theirs does no damage, and are also great at clearing out cover. they aren't meant to take a lot of damage, but their ability to hit for 27 damage before defenses makes them one of the deadlier options. Their overwatch is also extremely potent.

PUGs are excellent. They heal, they resupply, and the evasion buff is designed so that you can throw it on a unit who is rushing the enemies cover. Evade buff a trooper who runs up, grenades, the enemies get staggered and their cover explodes, then your firing line tears them to ribbons and what little remains can't seal the deal on your trooper.

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A lot of this is not really grasping how Vanguard bio plays. Namely, you're a firing line faction. Advance slowly, cover to cover, interlinked overwatches. Then clear the enemy cover with grenades and wipe them out in a hailstorm of bullets. Nades cancel defensive stance AND clear cover, leaving enemies primed for heavy damage from long range.

yeah but its too easy to counter overwatch, so easy that in mp you pretty much are sure to never proc it once, then... get just at overwatch range limit(since overwatch have a -1-2 range) and shoot or make vanguard have to come to you... vanguard can stop a ♥♥♥♥♥♥ rush yeah... but if they have to attack they suffer way too much.

Stagger only work on unit that require multiple action point to deal decent damages... dvar don't, kir'ko have nade will be in melee range next turn or turbo snipe you, amazone can freely ignore overwatch and blind you, syndicate have nades, assembly got nades

[AnemoneMeer]

If the enemy comes to the edge of overwatch and pops a single shot at you, that's exactly what you want them to do. Their shot will miss or graze most of the time, and generally not be effective, then you clear out the enemy cover, and hit their exposed, not defending body.

Remember, you can shoot cover. As Vanguard, you will often be destroying it either with grenades or with bullets. Your overwatch lines are about making the enemy have to take bad shots at you, so that you can apply high damage revenge fire on exposed targets. Of the various factions basic units, the vanguard have the best overwatch line.

Vanguard bio isn't built for rushing charges in the way that Syndicate bio is. You don't have the ability to punt enemies out of cover and towards your army, nor do you have the ability to just make a unit immortal for a turn. They're a slow rolling, cover to cover advance. And they're really good at playing this sort of zone control/return fire game.

Stagger isn't simply about denying action points. It takes enemies out of defensive stance. if the enemy moves up and defends, you use grenades to wipe out their cover, disable their defense stance, and then cut them apart with sheer damage. Likewise, one well placed grenade can often wipe several units cover out and damage them, which leads to trooper fire ripping them apart.

[3am]

This is good stuff, AnemoneMeer. Thank you for the tips.

[AnemoneMeer]

Originally posted by 3am:

This is good stuff, AnemoneMeer. Thank you for the tips.

Been doing a lot of minmaxing on the discord and ingame. Got my normal game win times down to 50-75 turn range. Getting really comfortable with the battle systems and been able to win fights 2.5 to 1. It's amazing precisely how much value proper army comp and strategy has, and even my basic syndicate indentured have been kicking all kinds of ass due to being properly applied. It's the same for Vanguard troopers, they're amazing once you realize how they work.

[Don Montega]

Originally posted by AnemoneMeer:

Originally posted by 3am:

This is good stuff, AnemoneMeer. Thank you for the tips.

Been doing a lot of minmaxing on the discord and ingame. Got my normal game win times down to 50-75 turn range. Getting really comfortable with the battle systems and been able to win fights 2.5 to 1. It's amazing precisely how much value proper army comp and strategy has, and even my basic syndicate indentured have been kicking all kinds of ass due to being properly applied. It's the same for Vanguard troopers, they're amazing once you realize how they work.

Exactly, people often make the mistake of only looking at the tier of the unit or not thinking through mods. Vanguard have some really great troops, especially early on, and the PUGs can be quite annoying as a support for your enemy.

[Owl]

|Personally I prefer a different faction, that can dip into vanguard for their t1 troops.

[Climhazzard]

I don't find Vanguard weak at all. I do think it's important to get the +1 range mod for your troopers as soon as possible though, and make your first commander an infantry commander.

[melkathi]

Originally posted by Owl:

|Personally I prefer a different faction, that can dip into vanguard for their t1 troops.

How can you be named OWL and not be Vanguard? Did they mind control you?

[Jolly the Joker]

Vanguard? Nanite Injectors and Nanite Support Station are insanely powerful - there is nothing weak about Vanguard. Mod them with Nanite Injectors, advance slowly and under a maximum of overwatch (move in small increments to have a maximum of overwatch shots) and things are a cakewalk.

[Tiasmoon]

Also remember that Nanite Injectors doesnt just heal: it also reduces damage taken, so depending on the situation you can use it before starting a firefight.

[Don Montega]

Vanguard rocks, especially when you outfit a full air division with gunships. They CC the enemy, remove cover and can quickly disengage. With the level 1 nanites those gunships are very resilient. Then add secret tech stuff like synthesis revival of mechanic units and laugh when deploying your groundforce to see the smoldering remains of the opposing faction.

[Toddasaurus Rex]

Vanguard have some really strong options.

Gunship hero with a full stack of gunships (with air commander, minimum.) can do some real nasty damage with upgrades. A hero in a tank with a squad of tanks with a pug for flair can do some serious damage.

Half their good roster is mechanized, with synthesis its absolutely dumb. 4 tanks, hero in a tank, and one of the network controllers rocks the field. Operation for regen on mechanized, controller extends the duration. 4 turns of regenerating TANKS. Also applies for a walker stack, or gunships. Synthesis vanguard is a nightmare mid-late game. with that regen tactic running some tanky engineers up the field dropping turrets in tandem with the regen op makes a scary surprise for the field.

To be honest my only real gripe is that I haven't found a way to build valkyries outside of the combat op that drops one on the field.

[Don Montega]

Originally posted by Warrior Unhinged:

Vanguard have some really strong options.

Gunship hero with a full stack of gunships (with air commander, minimum.) can do some real nasty damage with upgrades. A hero in a tank with a squad of tanks with a pug for flair can do some serious damage.

Half their good roster is mechanized, with synthesis its absolutely dumb. 4 tanks, hero in a tank, and one of the network controllers rocks the field. Operation for regen on mechanized, controller extends the duration. 4 turns of regenerating TANKS. Also applies for a walker stack, or gunships. Synthesis vanguard is a nightmare mid-late game. with that regen tactic running some tanky engineers up the field dropping turrets in tandem with the regen op makes a scary surprise for the field.

To be honest my only real gripe is that I haven't found a way to build valkyries outside of the combat op that drops one on the field.

Yeah the valkyrie as a core unit would really add some melee options, which the vanguard basically lack.
Also why don't we have Air-Transportations like Dropships, for quickly transporting troopers?
After all the vanguard is very combined arms and mobile, but they lack the essentials.
I'd also love to replace the Walkers, i don't like them, they feel like a static gunship, with being harshly punished by staggering via hacks, where the gunship still has all options at hand.

I think the game needs to open up more and allow for full unit customization, including replacing weapons of default units for different approaches.

[gunnergoz]

I mod the heck out of my troops, even Tier I's have one or two mods for serious stacks. Used correctly and in synergy with other specialists, the Vanguard troopers work fine for me.