Neverwinter Nights vs Neverwinter Nights 2: The DEX Approach

[RACHMANOVSKI]

This is not a complain, nor a rant, but I just want to know how people make the DEX-based Character works.

My character usually Rogue character, with a dash of Shadowdancer and Assassin if I like more spice, you know, the usual.

But recently, I bought NWN2, mostly because I want to play Drow.

I don't know what is the exact difference (aside from the rules) of both game, but somehow, my DEX-based rogue struggle *A LOT* more to deal Sneak Damage to enemy in NWN2, compared to NWN1.

I've made 20+ character in the span of 50 hours playing NWN2 and I have never once make DEX-rogue enjoyable as it did in NWN1.

I know taking Drow as the selected race means you get that Level adjustments which mean your char progression is slower, but boy, even when I reach level 10, my char is struggling to sneak and deal double digit damage, whereas in NWN1 at this point, my Rogue/Fighter or Rogue/SD/Ass :) is basically, depends on how you play it, a one man army.

I mean, Khelgar and Qara is nuking everybody with ice nuke and cleaves left and right, while my char struggling to kill one enemy toe to toe. What gives?

I also notices how enemies on NWN2 are much much slash-sponge, like the health pool is just.. wow, like 9 damage dealt is barely a scratch.

So eventually I reversed back to my idiotic Brute Rogue, shooting STR as high as it gets, decent Dex and Int.

So what is wrong, in your opinion, with NWN2? Is it because the enemy designed to be much more resilient against sneak? or because Obsidian's rendition of NWN engine sucks? or am I missing something here?

[wendigo211]

Basically NWN2 is closer to PnP and they removed a few of the exploits that allowed you to sneak attack enemies in NWN (e.g. no more knockdown sneak attacks). You'll want to use flanking, HiPS or Feint to land sneak attacks in NWN2. The rogues you fight in the warehouses also have improved uncanny dodge. Playing an ECL-2 race, it's going to hard to get your level high enough to sneak attack them. However, the NWN2 campaign does have a pretty good crafting system, and adding elemental damage to your weapons will help with damage.

In both NWN games, playing a dex character isn't a great idea, too many sneak and critical hit immune enemies. At least in epic levels NWN2 gives you epic precision, expose weakness and perfect two-weapon fighting. Just save yourself some pain and make a strength Rogue.

[Soteria]

^^ I'd agree with the above. Too many enemies that are immune to sneak and crit. It's sad.

[Jackie Daytona]

yeah tell me about it, made a rogue on Prisoners of the mist and you have to be a masochist to have fun or get anything done. I said screw it went two handed fighter with strength, straight bulldoze through stuff. imo rogue is only useful for lockpicking n traps. maybe recon but the TAB button kinda ruins that.

[wendigo211]

Don't forget that you can make a strength Rogue. There's no law that says Rogues have to be made with a high dex. They actually work quite well and Pathfinder even has a few strength archetypes. You do lose some AB vs. a Full BAB class, but tumble is a class skill, so you get that +1 AC per 5 base ranks, and they also get UMD which is always useful.

[RACHMANOVSKI]

Originally posted by wendigo211:

Basically NWN2 is closer to PnP and they removed a few of the exploits that allowed you to sneak attack enemies in NWN (e.g. no more knockdown sneak attacks). You'll want to use flanking, HiPS or Feint to land sneak attacks in NWN2. The rogues you fight in the warehouses also have improved uncanny dodge. Playing an ECL-2 race, it's going to hard to get your level high enough to sneak attack them. However, the NWN2 campaign does have a pretty good crafting system, and adding elemental damage to your weapons will help with damage.

In both NWN games, playing a dex character isn't a great idea, too many sneak and critical hit immune enemies. At least in epic levels NWN2 gives you epic precision, expose weakness and perfect two-weapon fighting. Just save yourself some pain and make a strength Rogue.

I tried to do Dex build on both games, but it is significantly better to play Dex on NWN instead of NWN2. Even with -1 Str modifier, a Rogue/Shadowdance Rogue/SD/Assassing stab harder than it did in NWN2, perhaps there are something different on how sneak attack and critical works in NWN2.

Still stick with the drow and I agree with you, adding extra damage roll type is the way if you want to deal damage that is not a mere scratch on the enemies.

Originally posted by Jackie Daytona:

yeah tell me about it, made a rogue on Prisoners of the mist and you have to be a masochist to have fun or get anything done. I said screw it went two handed fighter with strength, straight bulldoze through stuff. imo rogue is only useful for lockpicking n traps. maybe recon but the TAB button kinda ruins that.

Yep, I don't know what they did that is so wrong, but NWN1 and NWN2 should not be that different. But then again NWN2 is preversion of BioWare's idea/system by Obsidian, story is good but boy it's pain in the ass if you don't max STR or Mage.

There are silver lining to DEX build tho: AC.

But you have to add +1 or +2 modifier for STR, if not for extra damage roll, do it to carry more stuff, because I don't know why, even though my char has not passed maximum weight, they are already encumbered at +-75%, which is sucks.

Originally posted by wendigo211:

Don't forget that you can make a strength Rogue. There's no law that says Rogues have to be made with a high dex. They actually work quite well and Pathfinder even has a few strength archetypes. You do lose some AB vs. a Full BAB class, but tumble is a class skill, so you get that +1 AC per 5 base ranks, and they also get UMD which is always useful.

Yup, I went STR for my 34ish attempt of my 1st playtrough, hopefully I can pass chapter 2 this time. Low level fighting sucks so far.

[TD2013]

Uhm yes, grab Kaedrin pack and go Ninja =p
Anyway, there's been a few changes (aka nerfs) during NWN2's development and patching cycle that has made things a bit tricky for a Rogue player. Things you should know :

- Knockdown/IKD has been nerved into the ground, and you cannot do the Knockdown/Sneak combo, however this has been changed by another ability called Feint. Get it by taking Combat expertice, then Feint. It uses the Charisma modifier, so be aware of that. Clerics with Trickery domain get it for freesome.

- Darkness spell's Sneakattacks in the darkness sphere has also been nerved. As it stands right now it gives everyone some kind of conceilment bonus, including hostile npc's, so that doesn't really help =/

- You need 1d6 sneak attack to make the asassin's Sneak attack notification to appear at all. This has sadly never been adressed by obsidian, dispite that bug having been reported.

But the best suggestion I think; is to get kaedrin's pack. It will give Rogue players more options at least, to remain DEX based.

[Jalmari H.]

sneak attacks were like super broken in nwn 1

like everyone said, just throw in darkness spell or if target is fighting something else or whatever million other reasons you get nearly always sneak attack which is super crazy

counting out enemies that are just plain immune

in nwn 2 they actually made them not that op anymore and other nice balance fixes which was cool. They just failed to make working dungeon master tools and easy to use level editor which killed the game pretty fast.

Whole selling point of nwn 1 was that you could easily make a pretty big game world and host it for your friends. Without needing some special skills.