How to best build a module

[jchaosmaster]

I been playing for some time and after playing a couple module I been thinking giving it try. Just because A. I feel like hurting my time. B. I yet to find a module that plays the way I want to play one. And like the old saying can't find it make it.

I was wondering was it possible to use other people's assets, or is it best to start with base tools provided. I more mean use someone else's module as a starting point. Second I know nothing about coding but I wasn't looking to do anything massively complicated. Do I need to know how to code?

[DrLoboto]

If you mean you're wondering about whether it's allowed to use other people's modules as a base for a module that you intend to release yourself, check out module pages on NW Vault and you'll see they all have "Permissions & licensing" info at the bottom. Maybe Proleric will be able to tell you more about that.

Also, there is a category called "prefab" which are modules made specifically for the purpose that other authors can use them as a base. Often they're mostly pre-made areas without other content, but a few may also come with useful scripts.

About coding: Depends on what you want to do. For the most basic stuff you can just use the existing scripts without having to write your own. But I guess you should have a basic understanding about which scripts are for what. You can find module-building tutorials on the Vault that will introduce you to such basics.

If you're wondering whether it would be helpful or overwhelming to analyze other people's modules as a beginner, my advice would be to check out mini-modules like the ones made for Bioware contests. Those shouldn't be too complicated.

[Proleric]

Pretty much what DrLoboto said.

A good starting point is the Design Manual:
https://neverwintervault.org/project/nwn1/other/guide-building-volume-ii-design-manual

This is Volume II of the toolset manual (Volume I documents how everything in the toolset works).

I suspect most people have fun making their own areas, especially for single player, though there are prefabs and base modules, which might be particularly helpful when making a PW, but maybe less so in your case.

I'd recommend using a major custom content library e.g. CEP 2.x which provides many more creatures, tilesets etc as a plugin without having to learn custom content skills initially.

As for using other people's content on Neverwinter Vault (by far the most comprehensive site) you can do so without asking the author if the Permission section says Free and Open (or similar) provided you give credit and allow other people to adapt your creations without asking. This is almost always true, because the Vault has a tradition of open content sharing.

In the rare cases where the Permission section says something else, please respect the conditions (see site guidelines).

This is only true of the Vault - for example, Steam Workshop has its own rules - but fortunately the Vault has virtually everything you'll ever need.

[wendigo211]

The fist advice I'd give is: Don't do it!

Since that warrants a bit more elucidation, I'll explain further.

• I honestly don't think the audience is there for it anymore. Maybe, if you're lucky you'll get around 5000 users? More likely in the 1-2k range. Even if there are new people playing, they tend to play the hall of fame content, and new content doesn't get tried out.
  
• it's a big time commitment. It's not as bad as some toolsets, but I would say 100 hours of work for 1 hour of content is about what you can expect. More than that when you're starting out (learning) and, if you're building bigger modules, the cost for each additional hour is less than the previous hour. Looking at my Steam modules, my training module took me about 120 hours, my other module took about 340 hours. If you're using custom content, add another 100 hours to the project time.
  
• Third, you will not find play testers. Seriously, people are more willing to help you move than playtest your module. Once you start doing it yourself, you will understand why. It is mind numbing, tedious work. You have to replay content multiple times, with multiple classes trying to break the module all while maintaining a critical eye to dialog you've read 100 times. It's also a good chunk of the build time I mentioned.

If you're still not scared off, then you might have what it takes to build a module. The coding is basically c with a few limitations. There are some tutorials for learning NWScript, but you can also pick up any resource for learning c and just work through the first 10 lessons and you're ready to go. If you've never coded before (in any language), you might benefit from a more formal beginner resource.

I would also start without custom content, you can always add it later, and it's just going to be something else to add to the cognitive overload associated with learning a new skill.

[DrLoboto]

Originally posted by wendigo211:

Maybe, if you're lucky you'll get around 5000 users? More likely in the 1-2k range.

Wow, did you really get such a big audience? To me that sounds like a very, very generous estimation. OP, I'd think you can expect like 3-10 players at best actually letting you know they've played it and giving feedback. Doing it for the fame is the wrong motivation, this most likely won't work out. Building a module because you always wanted to learn how, in order to create something that you yourself always wished for, that's fine though. Only do it for yourself, not others, and stop if you're not enjoying it.

That being said, personally I often look for new modules and occasionally try out and playtest them, giving extensive feedback without even being asked to. I won't replay them over and over again and test all possible class combinations and such, but I usually proofread all text in my attempt to play through a new module, and I will comment on the strengths and weaknesses I perceive. So if you eventually need someone to take a first look, I could do that.

[DrLoboto]

Originally posted by jchaosmaster:

Oh, of course, you're right, wendigo211 most definitely meant the total audience for the whole game, and I misunderstood. Yeah, that makes a lot more sense. He also said that new content doesn't get tried out. I wouldn't go as far as "not at all", but yes, hardly. In any case, I think, nowadays, the average new module by a debut author would be very lucky to get more active players than you can count on both hands. You'll have to be happy about and grateful for every single one of them. Maybe put effort into actively promoting it. Or just don't really care about audiences and do it only for the fun of it.

EDIT: Some figures about more or less recent debut modules on the Vault that got some attention:

- Agrenost - Beneath the Cobbles (2014, 16 votes)
- Gladiatrix (2014, 26 votes) <- very popular
- The Tale of Frost and Fur (2019, 22 votes) <- highly sucessful, considering!
- The Secret of the Founder (2019, 7 votes)
- Clachan - Prelude (2020, 3 votes)
- Bloodfeud (2020, 8 votes)
- Tupilak (2017/2021, 7 votes) <- one of the most innovative modules in the last decade, IMO, but maybe the D20 modern theme and download plus fixed player character makes people shy away from playing it?
- Beckons from the Deep (2021, 12 votes)
- The Lunar Shard (2022, 20 votes) <- not a bad ratio either

There are also many that only have 1-5 votes though.

[jchaosmaster]

Originally posted by DrLoboto:

Originally posted by jchaosmaster:

Oh, of course, you're right, wendigo211 most definitely meant the total audience for the whole game, and I misunderstood. Yeah, that makes a lot more sense. He also said that new content doesn't get tried out. I wouldn't go as far as "not at all", but yes, hardly. In any case, I think, nowadays, the average new module by a debut author would be very lucky to get more active players than you can count on both hands. You'll have to be happy about and grateful for every single one of them. Maybe put effort into actively promoting it. Or just don't really care about audiences and do it only for the fun of it.

I wasn't bashing anything anyone said. I honestly don't really know whatt wendigo211 meant beyond what he said. I interpreted it as yea don't expect much praise, or not alot of people will play it. I would make massive effort to make a module but to expect no one to touch it. after all DM's that do use the system use premade content or on the discord i seen a few DM ask questions then vanish. Plus Currently I'm still playing Base content, steam workshop module, or the PRC content and have not started playing NEW content. On top of that I absolutely love this game but look at this form. maybe a few new topic's once a week. Unlike a growing game that has new threads every hour, even if the complaint is the same topic and people to lazy to use the search.

More impotently Learning to build a game just to play myself. AKA you already know where all the stories go and end. 60% of the fun is Not knowing. Currenttly playing Penultima Pest control on my laptop and what started as a clear out a mine quest is turning into something completely different.

Still i can't keep thinking leaving just a nick in the story that is Never Winter night could be fun. My thoughts of mixing the world D&D with something kinky like Monster girl encyclopedia, or the jokes of Baalbuddy Comics where every female NPC elf is a potental game over and Orc's are the master race could be a different kind of fun.

[wendigo211]

Originally posted by DrLoboto:

Wow, did you really get such a big audience? To me that sounds like a very, very generous estimation. OP, I'd think you can expect like 3-10 players at best actually letting you know they've played it and giving feedback. Doing it for the fame is the wrong motivation, this most likely won't work out. Building a module because you always wanted to learn how, in order to create something that you yourself always wished for, that's fine though. Only do it for yourself, not others, and stop if you're not enjoying it.

Yeah, the figure I mentioned, that's total audience (I.e. downloads). If you are doing a new project, you should release it on Steam Workshop and the Vault. I have a lot more downloads on Steam than the Vault. It helps that new players are more familiar with the Workshop than the Vault and there are fewer modules, so you're more likely to get downloads.

Doing it for yourself has to be the motivation, but bear in mind that there are alternatives. The time you spend learning the NWN toolset could be spent learning Bethesda's creation kit, Unity, RPGmaker, etc. Projects done with those tools could be monetized and generally have a larger audience. I learned my modding skills when NWN and NWN2 were released. If I choose to make module in NWN, familiarity is going to be a big factor in my choice. If I was making a module in 2024 starting from 0 knowledge base, I would not pick NWN.

[jchaosmaster]

Add in as said I have not even enjoyed all the base game and only still on the first chapter of Penultima campaign with just the PRC module content that's like 20 more modules.

[jchaosmaster]

More i know part of my struggles with most the module is my over all lack of understanding to true mechanics along with honesty no clue how every single module will work. So far the only legit constant is Consitration. Just because of trying to use skills mid combat.

[jchaosmaster]

Just check Steam DB for giggles and saw at best at least on steam NWN hits around a 1k players average. That puts the don't expect people to play your module in context. Still I think that's pretty good for honestly a really old game.

[DrLoboto]

And my guess would be the majority of these players are not playing custom single player modules but the official content or on online PWs.

[jchaosmaster]

Originally posted by DrLoboto:

And my guess would be the majority of these players are not playing custom single player modules but the official content or on online PWs.

Lol on that side there's no way of knowing. Also no way to know about GoG which Amazon had given the game free before which was how I found the game back when BG3 was released or mobile/other versions. Plus double now way I knowing how many of them are different/the same. But does shoe at least why the community feels tight when it comes to helping people

[Proleric]

Steam doesn't track players unless they have the Steam client running.

I've been playing this game for two decades, but Steam has only clocked 8.7 hours, which will be downloads and uploads, not gameplay.

[jchaosmaster]

Originally posted by Proleric:

Steam doesn't track players unless they have the Steam client running.

I've been playing this game for two decades, but Steam has only clocked 8.7 hours, which will be downloads and uploads, not gameplay.

I 100% agree it's not a great way to view a game I'm terms of population or quantity. Still comparing it my old favorite skyrim that has 15k and a lowest of 12k that's a big difference. Although I like never winter nights way more it's still something.

[Proleric]

Sure. ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ aside, no one making an NWN module today should expect a massive fanbase. The main reason for doing it now is for personal satisfaction.

That said, NWN remains pretty much the only toolset that allows us to make substantial standalone adventures without too much effort.

Also, while the player base is small, those who do play tend to be very knowledgable and provide good quality feedback.