UMD and Holy Avengers

[FireGryph]

Looking just for some clarification. The wiki page says that a UMD score of 25 or higher allows full usage of the standard Holy Avenger item. However, Im not quite sure what this exactly means, or entails, because the value of the item can change, correct? Lets say its a longsword with the Holy Avenger property,. but also has bonus 1d8 fire damage, and +3 attack bonus. THat would raise the value of the longsword over and above a sword with only the Holy Avenger trait, correct? At which point, would I need a higher UMD stat in order to make use of the holy avenger effect on the sword?
And what part of 'Holy Avenger' are you emulating to be able to use the property? Its a class restriction, right? Going by the table on the wiki, class emulation of 25 DC would be a max item value of 600,000. So if the value of the sword was 750,000 for example, that would bump it up so I would need UMD of 30 to make use of the holy avenger property? Is there a way to see the base 'value' of an item?

[Shiroi Ren]

It is a weapon with only Holy Avenger trait. As for proper emulation - you will emulate Paladin class - it means full benefits of Holy Avenger.

[Valden21]

If you're just talking about the Holy Avenger property, that's a DC of 15, because you're emulating the Paladin class; only Paladins can use the full abilities of an HA. The other two properties of the example sword aren't dependent on you being a Paladin, so no UMD needed there, just the Martial Weapon Proficiency feat.

[FireGryph]

Originally posted by Valden21:

If you're just talking about the Holy Avenger property, that's a DC of 15, because you're emulating the Paladin class; only Paladins can use the full abilities of an HA. The other two properties of the example sword aren't dependent on you being a Paladin, so no UMD needed there, just the Martial Weapon Proficiency feat.

In this case, you are only calculating the property you want to use and its requirements, as opposed to factoring in the value of the whole weapon?
Also, 15? The wiki says you need 25, but the wiki isnt always right of course.

[Shiroi Ren]

Standard item is a sword type from PnP "Holy Avenger" is a +2 sword with this item property. That's why that sword is 25 DC.

[FireGryph]

Originally posted by Shiroi Ren:

Standard item is a sword type from PnP "Holy Avenger" is a +2 sword with this item property. That's why that sword is 25 DC.

Why, exactly? The weapon enhancement bonus has no effect on the UMD DC, unless it raises the value of the sword into the next bracket. If that is the case, then every effect on the sword would raise the value of the sword even more, and thus could raise the DC just to activate the holy avenger trait?

[Valden21]

In this case, you are only calculating the property you want to use and its requirements, as opposed to factoring in the value of the whole weapon?
Also, 15? The wiki says you need 25, but the wiki isnt always right of course. [/quote]
Wiki says the DC 15 is for any weapn with nothing but the Holy Avenger property. In the standard PnP game, Holy Avenger means that for anybody but a paladin, it's a +2 weapon dispelling weapon. If you're a paladin, the HA's full abilities activate.

Originally posted by FireGryph:

Originally posted by Shiroi Ren:

Standard item is a sword type from PnP "Holy Avenger" is a +2 sword with this item property. That's why that sword is 25 DC.

Why, exactly? The weapon enhancement bonus has no effect on the UMD DC, unless it raises the value of the sword into the next bracket. If that is the case, then every effect on the sword would raise the value of the sword even more, and thus could raise the DC just to activate the holy avenger trait?

Wiki's entry on UMD contains a specific mention of the Holy Avenger property, and it says that if the score of your check is high enough to emulate an alignment, you can use the Holy Avenger's complete set of abilities. Emulating an alignment is DC 25, so you need to get at least that much on an UMD check in order to fully use a Holy Avenger. It's not because of what the standard version of a Holy Avenger is, it's because of the alignment restrictions on using the weapon's full abilities.

[FireGryph]

Originally posted by Valden21:

Wiki says the DC 15 is for any weapn with nothing but the Holy Avenger property. In the standard PnP game, Holy Avenger means that for anybody but a paladin, it's a +2 weapon dispelling weapon. If you're a paladin, the HA's full abilities activate.

Wiki's entry on UMD contains a specific mention of the Holy Avenger property, and it says that if the score of your check is high enough to emulate an alignment, you can use the Holy Avenger's complete set of abilities. Emulating an alignment is DC 25, so you need to get at least that much on an UMD check in order to fully use a Holy Avenger. It's not because of what the standard version of a Holy Avenger is, it's because of the alignment restrictions on using the weapon's full abilities.

Maybe Im reading a different page, but on the UMD page of the nwn.fandom wiki, it has a bullet point that states 'A UMD of 25 or higher allows full usage of the standard Holy Avenger item.' While throwing the term 'alignment' in there confuses things more. Do you have to emulate alignment at all? I thought you only had to emulate the class, Paladin.

But as an example, youre a rogue. You have a longsword that has the properties +2 enhancement bonus, keen, 1d8 Fire damage, Holy Avenger. Holy Avenger's used by non-paladins count as having +2 and grant the dispel ability, correct? Does that +2 from holy avenger stack with +2 enhancement bonus?

With 0 UMD, this would be a +2 Longsword with keen and fire damage. Or is it +4, and also with dispel?
With 15 UMD, same thing?
With 25 UMD you get the full effect? Its now a +2 Longsword with keen and fire damage, but also the Holy Avenger stats. An additional +5 that dispels on hit and does an additonal 1d6 divine to evil, and SR 16

[Shiroi Ren]

Holy Avenger Sword (Sword with +2 and HA) = 23122 gold cost
Sword with HA = 4501 gold cost

So far, I understand that UMD DC for HA is 5 + Alignment.

[Lady MacBeth]

Also bear in mind it will matter where you are using umd for HA at too. Vast majority of PWs will have it scripted that only paladins get the benefit and umd won't trigger it. Probably almost no single player modules will have it set up that way.

[Valden21]

Originally posted by FireGryph:

Originally posted by Valden21:

Wiki says the DC 15 is for any weapn with nothing but the Holy Avenger property. In the standard PnP game, Holy Avenger means that for anybody but a paladin, it's a +2 weapon dispelling weapon. If you're a paladin, the HA's full abilities activate.

Wiki's entry on UMD contains a specific mention of the Holy Avenger property, and it says that if the score of your check is high enough to emulate an alignment, you can use the Holy Avenger's complete set of abilities. Emulating an alignment is DC 25, so you need to get at least that much on an UMD check in order to fully use a Holy Avenger. It's not because of what the standard version of a Holy Avenger is, it's because of the alignment restrictions on using the weapon's full abilities.

Maybe Im reading a different page, but on the UMD page of the nwn.fandom wiki, it has a bullet point that states 'A UMD of 25 or higher allows full usage of the standard Holy Avenger item.' While throwing the term 'alignment' in there confuses things more. Do you have to emulate alignment at all? I thought you only had to emulate the class, Paladin.

But as an example, youre a rogue. You have a longsword that has the properties +2 enhancement bonus, keen, 1d8 Fire damage, Holy Avenger. Holy Avenger's used by non-paladins count as having +2 and grant the dispel ability, correct? Does that +2 from holy avenger stack with +2 enhancement bonus?

With 0 UMD, this would be a +2 Longsword with keen and fire damage. Or is it +4, and also with dispel?
With 15 UMD, same thing?
With 25 UMD you get the full effect? Its now a +2 Longsword with keen and fire damage, but also the Holy Avenger stats. An additional +5 that dispels on hit and does an additonal 1d6 divine to evil, and SR 16

We were looking at the same bullet point, and what I got was that the DC 25 was because of the emulating an alignment. Paladins are always Lawful Good, so you're needing to convince the sword that you're Lawful Good;

Per your example, the +2 enhancement bonus, the Keen enchantment, and the fire damage are all independent of the Holy Avenger enchantment. So it looks something like the following:
-0 DC UMD: +2 Longsword with Keen, Fire, and Dispel. You just need to be proficient with Martial Weapons to use it, or be an elf/half-elf.
-15 DC UMD: Same as directly above (AFAIK).
-25 DC UMD: +5 Longsword with Keen, Fire, Holy, Dispel, and SR 16. In effect, its enhancement bonus has gone up by +3 to become +5, it gets the Holy property, and the Spell Resistance; everything else it had before, it keeps.

[Shiroi Ren]

Originally posted by Valden21:

We were looking at the same bullet point, and what I got was that the DC 25 was because of the emulating an alignment. Paladins are always Lawful Good, so you're needing to convince the sword that you're Lawful Good;

Nope... Even if you're non-lawful good paladin... You can still use holy avenger at full. So it is not alignment check.

[FireGryph]

If the wiki says you need 25 UMD for HA, and its only checking class, then the HA would need a base value (a sword with ONLY the HA property) of between 300,000 and 600,000. And that seems utterly ridiculous.

[Shiroi Ren]

Originally posted by FireGryph:

If the wiki says you need 25 UMD for HA, and its only checking class, then the HA would need a base value (a sword with ONLY the HA property) of between 300,000 and 600,000. And that seems utterly ridiculous.

It checking alignment.

[FireGryph]

Originally posted by Shiroi Ren:

So it is not alignment check.

Originally posted by Shiroi Ren:

It checking alignment.

Now you really lost me here.

[Valden21]

Originally posted by Shiroi Ren:

Originally posted by Valden21:

We were looking at the same bullet point, and what I got was that the DC 25 was because of the emulating an alignment. Paladins are always Lawful Good, so you're needing to convince the sword that you're Lawful Good;

Nope... Even if you're non-lawful good paladin... You can still use holy avenger at full. So it is not alignment check.

How can paladins be non-lawful good? That's not in the ruleset that Neverwinter NIghts uses. The alignment variants were part of 3.5 Ed., and even then, only if you were using the Player's Handbook II. Neverwinter Nights uses the 3.0 Ed. rules, and in that ruleset, paladins HAVE to be Lawful Good.