Seems like the halfling is useless.

[Mentos]

With +2 dex/-2str, (which means it's a base 6 strength with -2 mod) unless you want to take -2 to your damage rolls you have to negate the dex bonus by adding points to str anyway. I feel like the only time you wouldn't do this if you are a class that doesn't pull damage from str; a caster. But the boosts from the race, as well as it's favored class (rogue) don't really provide it anything in the way of being a useful casting race. Am I missing something?

[wendigo211]

One of the things to look at is the character gets Small Stature, which gives them a +1 to AC and AB. Due to how the game handles weapons, they can also do some wierd things that can be useful.

• They can use a scimitar two-handed. There are no 18-20 threat range two-handed weapons in NWN, so if you want a two-handed weapon with that threat range, you have to play a small race.
  
• They can use a rapier two-handed, and use it with Weapon Finesse for AB (more exploitable in NWN2, where you could add int to damage).

For a caster, they basically get +2 to AC (from dex and small stature), with no penalty to CON. That makes them the best race for a Wizard or Sorcerer (baring multiclassing).

[The Flying Rodent]

A few other things to keep in mind with Halflings:

http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Favored_class

- Rogue is their Favoured class , which means that it doesn’t count towards a multiclass penalty if you decide to take lots of different base classes,

- They get lots of little bonuses such as +2 to Hide/Move Silently/Listen and +1 Attack Bonus to throwing weapons (which includes slings),

- They are Small , which means +1 to AB/AC, +4 to hide, an inability to use Tower Shields and Large Weapons (and all weapons are used 1 size down, Knockdown gets a size penalty, etc.)

With all the above in mind: Halflings are most suited to Dexterity Based Rogues that use Stealth skills, and no other race can really match that (Elves come close, but they don’t have Rogue as a Favoured class, nor all the Stealth skill bonuses).

Outside of this niche however, just about every other race is preferable, other than perhaps Half Elf (which is IMO the most useless race).

[The Flying Rodent]

Ursprungligen skrivet av wendigo211:

• They can use a rapier two-handed, and use it with Weapon Finesse for AB (more exploitable in NWN2, where you could add int to damage).

Sadly not the case. Whilst Rapiers indeed are covered under the Weapin Fonesse category, Halflings don’t use their Dexterity for AB when wielding one two handed.

And Gnomes are preferable to halflings (and tbh almost all other races) as Arcane casters, given that they get +2 to Concentration and Constitution , as well as having Wizard as a Favoured class.

[Mentos]

Half-elf is definitely an entirely worthless class except in extremely limited situations, which sucks since it's my favorite race second only to Gnomes. I hate how the races are set up, particularly in these earlier editions but even in 5e they all seem to favor one playstyle or another.

Anyways, in 3e from what I remember the ability score modifiers are intended to be added AFTER the rolls. So you roll 15 dex, 12 str. Apply modifiers and you get 17 dex, 10 str. Makes a difference, doesn't cripple the favored class. In NWN it's applied beforehand so generally you're going to negate it by adding points to str. The hide bonus is nice, but I question whether that makes up for not getting the extra feat from human, or immunity to sleep, and keen sense offered by the elf (whose ability bonus also get's negated most of the time, constitution is pretty important)

[wendigo211]

Ursprungligen skrivet av The Flying Rodent:

Sadly not the case. Whilst Rapiers indeed are covered under the Weapin Fonesse category, Halflings don’t use their Dexterity for AB when wielding one two handed.

Try it, in NWN they do, since the Rapier is hard coded to work with Finesse.

Edit: nevemind, you're right. I confused NWN with NWN2, where you could have some really wierd small race Rapier wielding Duelist/Swashbucklers.

And Gnomes are preferable to halflings (and tbh almost all other races) as Arcane casters, given that they get +2 to Concentration and Constitution , as well as having Wizard as a Favoured class.

Nope, the Dex boost matters more than the Con boost. +1 AC and touch attack AB, is better than +1 HP per level. The Favored class is a point for the gnome. The Concentration boost is good at low levels, but becomes irrelevant later too.

[Reifam]

I still haven't found a good way to build for a halfling, but that free +1 AC that stacks with everything sounds really nice. Could probably make a dex-centric rogue build or some kind of kama monk setup out of it.

[The Flying Rodent]

Ursprungligen skrivet av wendigo211:

Nope, the Dex boost matters more than the Con boost. +1 AC and touch attack AB, is better than +1 HP per level. The Favored class is a point for the gnome. The Concentration boost is good at low levels, but becomes irrelevant later too.

Really?

I can only think of one ‘useful’ Arcane spell in NWN that uses a Touch Attack, and that’s Vampiric Touch. Clerics get a few (e.g. Harm), but they can generally buff their AB to ridiculous levels, which effects Touch Attacks (making this a bit of a non problem).

Apart from that, a few Shifter abilities use Touch Attacks (e.g. Manticore Spikes), but shifting negates all racial Dex bonus (and this anything from Halfling).

So I dunno where you’re getting preference for Touch Attacks from. Maybe there’s more of them in NwN2 , but there’s hardly any in NWN 1.



As for whether 2 Dex is worth the trade for +2 Concentration and Constitution (actually works out to be +3 concentration when you count the CON boost):

- If you’re going the Full Plate Mage route (which is normally the AC Mage route) , then there’s no point having more than 12 Dex, which is easily attainable on a Gnome ( Cats Grace with 8 Base Dex is enough).

- AC only helps characters against physical attacks, whereas HP helps against physical AND magical attacks.

- Mages can get concealment and/or Damage Reduction spells to help early game, which is when the +1 AC difference would be most noticeable.

- Leading on from above: I’d say +1AC would only be noticeable early game as well? Just like the concentration boost?

And then after all that you have the Wizard Favoured class thing.


Anyway. Different strokes for different folks I suppose. Maybe if you were to make some sort of Epic Dodge Dex Mage then Halfling would be a good idea, but I’ll stick with Gnome over Halfling for NWN casters, for the reasons suggested above. :)

[The Flying Rodent]

Ursprungligen skrivet av Reifam:

I still haven't found a good way to build for a halfling, but that free +1 AC that stacks with everything sounds really nice. Could probably make a dex-centric rogue build or some kind of kama monk setup out of it.

Rogue X Fighter 4-6 (depending on pre-epic or epic environment, for weapon spec and extra AB) Shadowdancer 1 is a nice Halfling build that can duel wield and/or throw Darts at things from short range. Doesn’t get a multiclass penalty either!

High level Rogue builds tend to be pretty niche though, especially in level 40 environments. And also not very necessary when you can just skill dump Open Lock/Disable Trap on something like a Fighter Weaponmaster Rogue and have more up-front melee threat than a High Level Rogue.

[Bishop]

Halfing is a perfect finesse rogue or archer rogue. His strength penality is mostly irrelevant in both cases, he has really good race bonuses and rgoue as his favorite class for easy multiclassing.

[Bishop]

Ursprungligen skrivet av wendigo211:

For a caster, they basically get +2 to AC (from dex and small stature), with no penalty to CON. That makes them the best race for a Wizard or Sorcerer (baring multiclassing).

I'd say human is the best sorcerer race period. That single level of paladin is just too damn broken to not take. It's kinda sad that there's no aasimars in nwn1.

[The Flying Rodent]

Ursprungligen skrivet av Bishop:

Ursprungligen skrivet av wendigo211:

For a caster, they basically get +2 to AC (from dex and small stature), with no penalty to CON. That makes them the best race for a Wizard or Sorcerer (baring multiclassing).

I'd say human is the best sorcerer race period. That single level of paladin is just too damn broken to not take.

That, and humans get no multiclass penalty if going the archetype Sorc 38 Pal 1 Monk 1 route . The extra skill point humans get is really useful for Sorcerers as well, who typically have skill shortages compared to Wizards.

If you can get by with an xp penalty though, Gnome Sorc/Pal/Monks are a ‘wee’ bit sturdier than Humans, but not by that much.

[wendigo211]

As for whether 2 Dex is worth the trade for +2 Concentration and Constitution (actually works out to be +3 concentration when you count the CON boost):

- If you’re going the Full Plate Mage route (which is normally the AC Mage route) , then there’s no point having more than 12 Dex, which is easily attainable on a Gnome ( Cats Grace with 8 Base Dex is enough).

Are you seriously recommending a build that isn't viable until it can get all three Autostill Feats around level 30? I've played level 40 builds too, but unless you're doing PvP or are on a PW, a build that's playable from 1-40 is much better. Try something like a Wizard 35/Rogue 4/Shadowdancer 1 (and Halfling is the best race for that build), take the Rogue levels at level 7, 17, 27, and 39 and the Shadowdancer at 12 or so. Far more playable and ultimately more powerful than the armored caster since it can use HiPS to break spell locks.

If you are playing an armored caster you want to be medium sized so you can use a tower shield and have enough strength to not be encumbered in fullplate with a tower shield. Which makes Human, or Elf if you need Keen Senses, the best races.

- Leading on from above: I’d say +1AC would only be noticeable early game as well? Just like the concentration boost?

This is the flaw in your reasoning. Hitpoints become irrelevant as you level up, due to potions and friendly healing. What matters isn't how many HP you have, but how long it takes before you have to quaff a potion. HP has no effect on that statistic, AC always does. Because of the balance between AC and AB (which the module designer hopefully paid attention to) +1 AC is always a 5% lower chance to be hit. An extra 40 HP doesn't really change anything, you're still going to use the same amount of potions and likely rest just as often (since HP isn't the limiting factor for when a spell caster needs to rest).

[wendigo211]

Ursprungligen skrivet av The Flying Rodent:

If you can get by with an xp penalty though, Gnome Sorc/Pal/Monks are a ‘wee’ bit sturdier than Humans, but not by that much.

Not really since that character also wants power attack (13 str) for Divine Shield (and as mentioned a tower shield).

[The Flying Rodent]

Ursprungligen skrivet av wendigo211:

Ursprungligen skrivet av The Flying Rodent:

If you can get by with an xp penalty though, Gnome Sorc/Pal/Monks are a ‘wee’ bit sturdier than Humans, but not by that much.

Not really since that character also wants power attack (13 str) for Divine Shield (and as mentioned a tower shield).

Sorcerer 38 Pal 1 Monk 1 doesn't get Divine Shield, so the lower strength for Power Attack is moot for this particular version. The extra strength is nice for carrying around Heavy Armour, but that's generally offset by the fact that it uses a Large Shield instead of a Tower Shield.

Sorcerer 36 Pal 3 Monk 1 'does' indeed get Divine Shield, as does Sorcerer 38 Cleric 1 Monk 1. For either of these, a medium sized skin is indeed better.

But: both versions have to potentially sacrifice some other ability points and feats to get Divine Shield, and the 1 Cleric version doesn't get the same saves (but it does get an extra feat).

So there's tradeoffs for all 3 builds, and the one I was referring to [sorc 38 pal 1 monk 1] has arguably sturdier as a Gnome than as a human. That was my point.

Are you seriously recommending a build that isn't viable until it can get all three Autostill Feats around level 30? I've played level 40 builds too, but unless you're doing PvP or are on a PW, a build that's playable from 1-40 is much better.

Try something like a Wizard 35/Rogue 4/Shadowdancer 1 (and Halfling is the best race for that build), take the Rogue levels at level 7, 17, 27, and 39 and the Shadowdancer at 12 or so. Far more playable and ultimately more powerful than the armored caster since it can use HiPS to break spell locks.

First off: Please don’t think I’m advocating for Sorcerers being better than Wizards. They both have different strengths and weaknesses, and are more or less playable than each other in certain scenarios at certain stages of their level curve. Nor am I ‘recommending’ Sorc / Pal / Monk to anyone; it’s just generally the caster build archetype.

Whether or not certain builds 'are playable from 1-40' is highly dependant on the environment that you're in.

I can indeed see the merit in making a Halfling mage that takes Rogue periodically for Tumble dumps, or at the very least takes one at level 7. This would definitely make them more survivable at lower levels, as would Shadowdancer quite early. I take back the statement that Gnomes are ‘completely’ preferable to Halflings as casters in this regard.

However, as to whether this particular Halfling build is more powerful or playable than 'the armoured caster' from 1-40 is up for debate.

Wizards in general tend to be stronger early game than Sorcerers , purely because they have such a greater spell choice and their spells come earlier. It is also a lot easier to convert an early Wizard into an early Melee Character than it is a Sorcerer (Ghostly Visage and Flame Weapon at Level 3, anyone?), and melee is generally more powerful than all spell casting at early levels [save for maybe High DC Area Crowd Control spells such as Sleep].

Again, I can totally agree that the Halfling Wizard/Rogue build would have more tricks up its' sleeve early than any Sorcerer would before say level 12. However, that begins to change in the teen levels, as Sorcerers spell reserves begin to come online, as do things like Persistent Area Spells and Damage Shields.

It's all well and good to be hard to hit and able to hide. But: what if plonking on Ethereal Visage + Damage Shields for tanking (for which AC is worthless but HP isn’t), and/or using Vamp Touch/IGMS/Ice Storm/etc. for blasting enemies to death, and/or laying down multiple clouds of Acid, is simply more effective at clearing things and staying alive than being a crafty HIPS wizard with less spell slots?

My personal experience with Mages in all sorts of environments is that, come the teen and Epic levels, Haste, Darkness, Cloudkill and/or Bigby Hands are enough to stave off being hit in the majority of scenarios. That, and plonking on Damage Shields and sort form of Damage Reduction [Visage spells, Polymorph Self Lemure or Troll, Shapechange Golem] is pretty effective against everything.

Sorcerers in general just have more spell slots up their sleeve, and can fluidly change between spell choices mid-fight, which makes them ‘more playable’ than Wizards in many cases from the teen levels onwards. Having extra defensive capability from being a Wizard/Rogue/Shadowdancer, whilst very nice, is not completely necessary.

Granted, teen level DC mages and Wizards are definitely a force to be reckoned with as well [Area Confusion and early Death Magic spells such as Phantasmal Killer can be lethal], but again, it's not entirely necessary to have AC to be able to safely use these. Haste, disables and good positioning are generally enough.

And THEN once you have Auto Still Spells online, you can become a lot more effective in PvP as a Sorcerer in Heavy Armour than a Wizard generally. As a nice little aside. I do think Wizards are generally better PvM than Sorcerers though, as they have more spells to choose from (and thus can deal with more scenarios effectively), and can multiclass better into PvM hybrid builds generally (Fighter Wizard spellswords, Wizard Shifters, etc.).

And as for using HIPS to break spell locks ... ever made a Sorc 38 Pal 1 SD1 or Sorc 35 Pal 3 SD2? They can do the same thing, potentially in Heavy Armour. The difference being they have more saves, can switch spells on the fly, and have more Mantles, True Seeing Spells and Mordenkainen Disjunctions to fling about and counter a Wizard counterpart or generally evade spell damage. At the sacrifice of early power and DC/Spell focus feats, of course.

This is the flaw in your reasoning. Hitpoints become irrelevant as you level up, due to potions and friendly healing. What matters isn't how many HP you have, but how long it takes before you have to quaff a potion. HP has no effect on that statistic, AC always does. Because of the balance between AC and AB (which the module designer hopefully paid attention to) +1 AC is always a 5% lower chance to be hit. An extra 40 HP doesn't really change anything, you're still going to use the same amount of potions and likely rest just as often (since HP isn't the limiting factor for when a spell caster needs to rest).

This is assuming that you're playing in an environment with plenty of potions and healing, and that physical damage is your only threat. Again: AC only helps against weapons, whereas HP helps against traps, magic, everything. A lot of casters use/have True Seeing, which means HIPS isn’t a complete get-out-of-jail-free card (though it certainly is in most scenarios).

There's a reason why Mages generally prioritise Constitution after Intelligence/Charisma : They have low HP!!! :)

Also: Damage Reduction [from things like Ghostly Visage or Stoneskin] and Improved Invisibility early game [which you can get from LEVEL 1 with the right familiar] is a LOOOOT more impactful against physical weapons than AC early game. It is also a lot more impactful late game, when enemies' AB tends to be a lot higher than a bog standard mage's AC is.

I cannot think of any scenario playing a mage when I thought: Well it sure would've been nice to have 1 more AC there. But I can think of plenty where I thought 'If I only had a few more HP I would've survived that Deadly Trap/Critical Hit/Fireball/etc'.



Aaaaaanyway.

I can definitely see Halflings being preferable to Gnomes for something like the “Early-Defense-Priority” Wiz35/Rge4/SD1 you suggested. And I could also see them as being preferable for something like an Epic Dodge Mage (Sorc 27 BG 3 SD 10, Wiz 26 Rge 13 SD 1, that sort of thing).

But, generally speaking, for about any other caster build, I still would consider Gnomes [and Humans for Sorcerers I suppose] overall generally more preferable than Halfling, for the reasons stated above. The exception to that would be a scenario in which wielding a Staff and Small Shield is preferable, in which case I'd go either Human or Dwarf for the medium sized skin.

Maybe on a server that changes True Seeing to a Spot Check or similar, or has a nice subrace Bonus (e.g. Drow Spell Resistance) I’d prefer Elf, but if it’s default, I’d dislike using Elf for the lower constitution.

And aside from something like an Epic Dodge Mage, I‘d definitely prefer extra Concentration and Constitution to Dexterity, on any caster, at any level.

But again: Different strokes for different folks. My Mage playstyle is probably different to yours, and so I prefer different stats.

[Mentos]

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