This Game is The Best and Worst.

[Wanderer]

Best game ever for player tools allowing custom-building, game design, and DM'ing in a multiplayer DnD RPG setting.

Worst game ever for showing the industry why it should never give communities exactly what they want. Twenty years on, and this game has longevity so few games will ever achieve. Why? The graphics are @#%!. Why? The players are given the reigns to do as they dream. The game devs across the industry lack the vision to find a suitable monetization plan for games of this variety.

I want a game with Unreal Engine 5 levels of verisimilitude and this level of customizability. Where is that game? Will anyone love gaming enough to make it or will we all be forced forever to only wish for it? Everyone has to get paid to live and do well, but the bean counters still do their best to ruin everything?

How much would we honestly pay for such a game? If the devs guaranteed a premium experience, but then they could go @%@! themselves for 20-30 years while the community did its own thing, what would you willingly pay for it? I think it's about the only time I'd consider more than $60 for a game (and I rarely pay more than $30). What would you pay if you could choose game system and house rules, or build from scratch DIY? What say you?

[𝑨𝖕𝖍𝖎𝖔𝖓]

Originally posted by Wanderer:

Best game ever for player tools allowing custom-building, game design, and DM'ing in a multiplayer DnD RPG setting.

Worst game ever for showing the industry why it should never give communities exactly what they want. Twenty years on, and this game has longevity so few games will ever achieve. Why? The graphics are @#%!. Why? The players are given the reigns to do as they dream. The game devs across the industry lack the vision to find a suitable monetization plan for games of this variety.

Ignoring the fact that its hard to get too many people involved in licensing and the publishing of products to sit down at a table and agree on anything especially when it comes to Wizards of the Coast. Video Games can quickly become a spiders web of inter-connected licensing and publishing contracts. Money being the driving factor.

The simple answer, at least for me, is the freedom Nwn gives to build and the fact that its a well liked version of the DnD ruleset. I personally am less of a fan of 4e and 5e than 1st, 2nd, 3rd or 3.5. The much older Gold Box Series DnD games are still adored for much the same reason- ruleset.

Originally posted by Wanderer:

I want a game with Unreal Engine 5 levels of verisimilitude and this level of customizability. Where is that game? Will anyone love gaming enough to make it or will we all be forced forever to only wish for it? Everyone has to get paid to live and do well, but the bean counters still do their best to ruin everything?

If the will to do so was solely the deciding factor we likely would already. Your more likely to get such with a Pathfinder[rpg.stackexchange.com] game than you are with a DnD game these days.

Originally posted by Wanderer:

How much would we honestly pay for such a game? If the devs guaranteed a premium experience, but then they could go @%@! themselves for 20-30 years while the community did its own thing, what would you willingly pay for it? I think it's about the only time I'd consider more than $60 for a game (and I rarely pay more than $30). What would you pay if you could choose game system and house rules, or build from scratch DIY? What say you?

This would be more dependent on the value to the person. So subjective and likely to vary quite a bit from individual to individual.

[wendigo211]

Originally posted by Wanderer:

I want a game with Unreal Engine 5 levels of verisimilitude and this level of customizability. Where is that game? Will anyone love gaming enough to make it or will we all be forced forever to only wish for it? Everyone has to get paid to live and do well, but the bean counters still do their best to ruin everything?

Ultimately, the problem with better graphics is a more complex toolset. It's basically the NWN2 problem. I can make an area in around 10 hours in the NWN toolset, because I'm using tiles and they look like ♥♥♥♥. Even if I put down a ton of placeables the area will look like ♥♥♥♥... so it doesn't take long to create an area that represents the mood or setting that I want. Then you move up to NWN2, suddenly I'm not bound by tiles anymore, I have more complex lighting that actually looks good, higher resolution textures and I need placeables to make that area look lived in. Now that area that took 10 hours in NWN takes 80 hours in NWN2 and requires more technical competence. If you want something that has modern graphics, there's really no way to do it without providing the modder professional tools and the modder needs the skills of a professional artist.

You also have to consider the ease of use of tools like Unity that let a modder create the game they want and monetize it. If you create tools as complex as Unity, why would I want to mod for free in NWN3 when I can use Unity or UE5 instead and make some cash?

I do enjoy NWN, but I think the days of that kind of modding are coming to a close. That said some of the NWN/NWN2 modding groups did end up becoming professional studios, e.g. Bouncyrock.
As modders: https://neverwintervault.org/project/nwn2/module/misery-stone

As a studio: https://store.steampowered.com/app/720620/TaleSpire/

[jv]

oi

[𝑨𝖕𝖍𝖎𝖔𝖓]

wendigo211 gives a great assessment of professionally created tools, graphics and models.

The problem with both of those(Unity and UE5) is that they are engines created in house by a company with assets that are licensed and being sold individually to professional developers in most cases.

This isnt much different than how its always been- A company devs an engine and tools in-house and either develops several games from it or licenses it out to others to do so or a combination of the two.

But that is not a Video Game that is sold to consumers with tools to recreate those things. Ease of Use is sort of a misnomer in this instance as it applies mostly to developers with knowledge of code.

IIRC also the tile differences between the two neverwinter games was a choice made by nwn2. It doesnt preclude the fact you can bake better more complex graphics into tiles and use a system the same or similar as nwn toolset with painting tiles. It is certainly more work.

[Jackie Daytona]

I'm afraid if this game was made now days all the cool customization on servers would be MTX, right now on most servers i can change anything about my character, color, armor etc. same with the weapons and trading. on most servers you can just trade money and gold, you know how crazy that is? I was surprised by that as most games its a whole to do you have to be a premium member or have a subscription n even then you can just trade things or drop things. The freedom this game provides is now a commodity and sold to us. I dont see another masterpiece like this being made but if it did i'd gladly eat my hat.

[Jackie Daytona]

and the freedom of character as i would call it, on RP servers i've heard n seen every type of conversation you can imagine with dark n light subject matter. Things most games would ban or players would get all butt hurt about, It's refreshing honestly this game. It's like a time machine back before everyone went soft and found a problem with everything and before all the suits decided to sell us the juice from the orange once we bought the skin.

[Corin]

Originally posted by wendigo211:

Originally posted by Wanderer:

I want a game with Unreal Engine 5 levels of verisimilitude and this level of customizability. Where is that game? Will anyone love gaming enough to make it or will we all be forced forever to only wish for it? Everyone has to get paid to live and do well, but the bean counters still do their best to ruin everything?

Ultimately, the problem with better graphics is a more complex toolset. It's basically the NWN2 problem. I can make an area in around 10 hours in the NWN toolset, because I'm using tiles and they look like ♥♥♥♥. Even if I put down a ton of placeables the area will look like ♥♥♥♥... so it doesn't take long to create an area that represents the mood or setting that I want. Then you move up to NWN2, suddenly I'm not bound by tiles anymore, I have more complex lighting that actually looks good, higher resolution textures and I need placeables to make that area look lived in. Now that area that took 10 hours in NWN takes 80 hours in NWN2 and requires more technical competence. If you want something that has modern graphics, there's really no way to do it without providing the modder professional tools and the modder needs the skills of a professional artist.

You also have to consider the ease of use of tools like Unity that let a modder create the game they want and monetize it. If you create tools as complex as Unity, why would I want to mod for free in NWN3 when I can use Unity or UE5 instead and make some cash?

I do enjoy NWN, but I think the days of that kind of modding are coming to a close. That said some of the NWN/NWN2 modding groups did end up becoming professional studios, e.g. Bouncyrock.
As modders: https://neverwintervault.org/project/nwn2/module/misery-stone

As a studio: https://store.steampowered.com/app/720620/TaleSpire/

You don't need to have ♥♥♥♥♥♥ graphics to do what NWN does. NWN's graphics were not good for their time, but neither were they insanely outdated. If you want to see an example of a more up-to-date version of NWN's system, just look at what the Neverwinter MMO had with its foundry before they removed it.

Or look at recent shooters like Halo or Doom that use a similar prefab system. You can achieve pretty good looking levels with that sort of lego-block, prefab toolset. It's true it's not as flexible as, say, NWN2's system or a proper devkit (which is all NWN2 really was, tbh, it was just their devkit), but the ease of use it offers players makes up for any slight deficiency in terrain shaping or lighting.

It would be entirely possible to make a new RPG like Neverwinter Nights that looks very good relative to what we have now and has an easy to use prefab system. Developers (or rather, their moneymen) simply aren't interested.

[wendigo211]

Originally posted by Corin:

It would be entirely possible to make a new RPG like Neverwinter Nights that looks very good relative to what we have now and has an easy to use prefab system. Developers (or rather, their moneymen) simply aren't interested.

NWN isn't the only game to ship with a toolset or advertise it as a feature. Some have been simpler (e.g. Swordcoast Legends, HBS: Shadowrun Returns, Solasta) some of them more complex (Divinity: Original Sin) none of them have caught on with modders the same way as NWN. This isn't a case of if you build it they will come. They have moved on to other things.

[WALL3T]

You could just play skyrim to get that same level of effect. that pretty much has the same level of insane creativity as this game does.

Neverwinter was created during the Wild West of 3d rpgs and modding communities. it hit right when the internet was really growing so it developed that community and were all still around alive and kicking just adding more to the game.

I see the game as more of a stepping stone to other games or modding or even game developement.

[Cryptic]

download the hd graphics