A Dance with Rogues (build help)

[Laface]

I'm about to start a playthrough of Valine's module and I really want to do a Rogue/Wizard/Pale master build

Considering that the module requires a character with lvl 1 rogue with min. of 14 in dex and cha. What option am I looking to ?

My initial idea would be a melee dex role with finesse two weapons.

[Lorcryst]

I agree with the "melee dexxer" Rogue, but fighting with two weapons will use a lot of Feats : Ambidextry and Two-weapon fighting are needed to reduce the maluses to -4/-4, and you'll need a lighter weapon (one size category smaller) in the off-hand weapon to get the best result at -2/-2. All that on top of Weapon Finesse, and Ambidextry has a req of DEX 15+ ...

With a Halfling or Gnome, your only weapon choice is Short Sword + Dagger, and the list of "Finesse" weapon is quite small.

And you'll still need at least a bit of STR to add a couple of points of damage.

You'll only get one attack with the off-hand weapon unless you take the "Improved Two-weapon Fighting" Feat too.

That's three Feats to get the most of the dual-wielding style, and with the minimum DEX requirement you'll get no BAB bonus when using the two weapons (DEX 15 = +2, with a -2/-2 malus for the style), plus a fourth Feat for Weapon Finesse.

The req of CHA 14 of the module is a bit of a problem for the Wizard/Pale Master too, since those two rely on INT.

And the Rogue class needs at least three levels to get the bonus Feats of Evasion, Uncanny Dodge 1 and 2D6 sneak attack bonus damage, at level 1 you "only" get the huge list of skills and Sneak Attack (1D6).

The weapon lists of the Rogue and Wizard classes have a few items in common, to avoid having to spend even more Feats : club, dagger, light crossbow, heavy crossbow and quarterstaff.

The only "finessable" weapon in there is the dagger ...

If you're set on the triple-classes build, and only need 1 level of Rogue, I'd go with the light crossbow option (you can make sneak attacks with ranged weapons if you're within 30 feet of a flat-footed target) with the "Point blank shot" Feat : crossbows don't care about your STR stat, with a Wizard/Pale Master combo you'll have "pets" to distract the enemies, and you'll want to stay relatively close to your undead summons to buff/heal them.

That's very far from you dual-wielding melee dexxer idea, I know, but that fighting style is very "Feats hungry" and does not combine well with the Wizard and Pale Master classes.

[Laface]

Originally posted by Lorcryst:

I agree with the "melee dexxer" Rogue, but fighting with two weapons will use a lot of Feats : Ambidextry and Two-weapon fighting are needed to reduce the maluses to -4/-4, and you'll need a lighter weapon (one size category smaller) in the off-hand weapon to get the best result at -2/-2. All that on top of Weapon Finesse, and Ambidextry has a req of DEX 15+ ...

With a Halfling or Gnome, your only weapon choice is Short Sword + Dagger, and the list of "Finesse" weapon is quite small.

And you'll still need at least a bit of STR to add a couple of points of damage.

You'll only get one attack with the off-hand weapon unless you take the "Improved Two-weapon Fighting" Feat too.

That's three Feats to get the most of the dual-wielding style, and with the minimum DEX requirement you'll get no BAB bonus when using the two weapons (DEX 15 = +2, with a -2/-2 malus for the style), plus a fourth Feat for Weapon Finesse.

The req of CHA 14 of the module is a bit of a problem for the Wizard/Pale Master too, since those two rely on INT.

And the Rogue class needs at least three levels to get the bonus Feats of Evasion, Uncanny Dodge 1 and 2D6 sneak attack bonus damage, at level 1 you "only" get the huge list of skills and Sneak Attack (1D6).

The weapon lists of the Rogue and Wizard classes have a few items in common, to avoid having to spend even more Feats : club, dagger, light crossbow, heavy crossbow and quarterstaff.

The only "finessable" weapon in there is the dagger ...

If you're set on the triple-classes build, and only need 1 level of Rogue, I'd go with the light crossbow option (you can make sneak attacks with ranged weapons if you're within 30 feet of a flat-footed target) with the "Point blank shot" Feat : crossbows don't care about your STR stat, with a Wizard/Pale Master combo you'll have "pets" to distract the enemies, and you'll want to stay relatively close to your undead summons to buff/heal them.

That's very far from you dual-wielding melee dexxer idea, I know, but that fighting style is very "Feats hungry" and does not combine well with the Wizard and Pale Master classes.

The module requires to PC to be human only, so no halfling or gnome I guess. Since there is a CHA requirement, wouldn't be better to get sorceror's lvl instead of wizard ?

[Lorcryst]

Well, I don't know that particular module, but ...

Human only, with at least 1 level of Rogue, DEX and CHA of 14+ smells like you'll need to pick locks and persuade people.

So yes, the synergy with the Sorcerer is better due to the spells working with CHA instead of INT.

The other small problem is the melee angle : a Pale Master wants to be rather close to his summons to buff/heal them, and all the Finesse weapons have rather small base damage dice but higher critical range.

And there are several quarterstaves with useful bonuses for Sorcerers / Pale Masters : those classes get less spells than Wizards, so having them in items (or Scrolls with the Use Magic Device skill from the Rogue) can seriously boost your arsenal.

I'll have to check that module more closely, this is purely theory-crafting.

[Chauci 𐛧]

While two weapon fighting costs three feats it enables you to use an enchanted weapon in the off-hand and there are plenty of enchanted weapons in the module (even a good variety of daggers). Personally I wouldn't play a three class character in this module at least not a pale master.

One good synergy of a rogue/wizard is if you start with high INT on lvl1 for the bonus skill points.

Keep in mind part 1 takes you somewhere between lvl 9-12 if I remember correctly^^

[Shia Luck]

Originally posted by Laface:

I'm about to start a playthrough of Valine's module and I really want to do a Rogue/Wizard/Pale master build

Considering that the module requires a character with lvl 1 rogue with min. of 14 in dex and cha. What option am I looking to ?

It does not require you to play a rogue. Only 1 point in pickpocket before lvl 2. (14 charisma for the original version , but I think it has been updated in the last year and that requirement has changed. At least, the original was 14 Dex and Cha. One of those is now 12.) (would link you but it is difficult on my phone.. tomo maybe but I am sure someone else will :) )

Rogue/wiz is very possible and so much fun! possibly the best build for the game. Pure Sorc with pixie to do your locks and traps is also great. Obviously Rogue/Shadowdancer 1 is amazing. Actuslly, that is probbly the best. Valine's fav character was Cleric/Rogue, which makes no sense in a powerbuilding idea but it does work. (Anything works unless you want to fight stuff! The enemies are very tough!)

Unless you are intent on fighting thru everything, rather than sneaking or charming your way thru the encounters (you get pitiful XP for fighting), there are only RP reasons to take massively combat orientated classes like WM, Ftr, CoT, etc... PM is only useful as a melee class when played on hardcore in fighting things IMHO. You can use it ofc but it won't help you fight. You won't get to lvl 10 crit hit immunity and the first summons are pretty weak, no? (There are PM mods on the vault to make it more interesting at lower levels tho. One of those might work for you, but I do not know why you want to take it so cannot say., :) )

After all, you are a princess, no? What is it likely you could learn? Druid makes little sense, nor do fighter types in such a sexist society. (Barb is even more ridiculous than Druid, no?) Cleric (maybe CoT) , wiz (education) and Rog sneaking out of the windows at night cos you hate court life make the most sense to me. Bard could be cos learning music makes sense (but you have Pia). I can see how Assasin and PM fit with the (depending on your choices) story etc.. but only assassin is useful gameplay wise IMHO. MOnk could come from learning dance? (Huge defeciet of monk gear tho, but monk /rogue was fine despite hardly being able to steal anything!, lol).

2 weapon rogue is no issue at all, you get so many passive/class bonus as rogue it is an amazing class.. especially for this module. With SD it is easy street when you get discovered (and you will, the enemies do not have awful Spot/listen detection skills.. a few even have true seeing! You should run from them and get out the big scrolls of fire damage and summons for them! lol.)

Have fun :)

[Lorcryst]

I've read a lot more about that "A Dance with Rogues" module, and I have some bad news :

From the introduction by the Author, you'll play a rebel princess wanting to escape her life.

And there is a heavy emphasis on non-combat solutions, with dialog options and Persuade / Bluff giving the best results, with Pick Pocket needed to go out of the first cut-scene.

So I think the Pale Master multiclass is a really, really bad choice for that particular module, it's clearly written with the Rogue class (and maybe Bard) in mind.

I think I'l try it myself, just to be sure, as soon as I find how to install all the needed files to my Steam version.

[Lorcryst]

I found the module on the Neverwinter Vault, as well as the hak pack and the sequel, and did a couple of test runs ...

The reqs of Human, Female, CHA 14, DEX 14 still hold true.

You must have at least 2 Ranks in the Pick Pockets skill to unlock the level up after the first railroading cutscene.

You must learn the Lock Picking skill at level 2 or the game complains.

I tried all that with several char, not taking the minimum CHA and DEX, etc, and found out about the minimum 2 Ranks in Pick Pockets and the learning of the Lock Picking skill with a Paladin with the bare reqs and me cross class skill points in Pick Pockets.

As an aside, this is ABSOLUTELY NOT the kind of Mature Themed (to stay politically correct) module I want to play, so I'll uninstall everything as soon as possible.

The dresses are nice, at least ... and they get ripped to shreds very quickly when your character gets raped in the railroading intro.

NOT for me, I hope you enjoy it still.

[Water Rabbit]

In case anyone else stumbles on this. The newer EE version only requires a 12 DEX. The 14 CHA is still a req. as is human.

In the EE version (as of v2.11) the character can get to level 14 and still have game left to play. For the 1.69 version the character can get to level 13 at the very end.

After the Prologue, the character is leveled to 2. At that point the mod checks to see if the character has any ranks in both Lockpicking and Pickpocket. So technically, only 1 rank in each is necessary as the rest can be supplied with equipment. Keep in mind that to steal from a non-hostile creature the DC is 20 -- which with a low PP, that can take quite a bit of rolling.

If you want to do TWF, then start with Rog and multiclass into Ranger for Dual Wield. Since 90% of the enemies in the game are easily killed with traps a martial build isn't that necessary unless you want to be able to equip medium/heavy armors (which interfere with Stealth). So a Rogue/Ranger/Shadowdancer has the strongest synergy for this module.

While it might be tempting to go Sorcerer, the vast majority of XP in the mod is gained through skills, which implies having a high INT. Since you can "Take 20" on picking locks and disabling traps, you will want at least 10 ranks in those skills by 7th level as there are a number of locks and traps that get into the 40s with their DCs. With 10 ranks, the Amulet of the Master, +6), Greater Gloves of the Rogue (+3), that allows the player to hit DC 39 locks and traps. Lockpicks go up to +12, so DC 51 + DEX/INT bonus. I think the most difficult lock in the game is DC 60, but I believe you can find a key for it. For traps I think DC 36 is the highest.

The social skills also provide XP as well.

For an arcane build, Rog 2, Wiz 10, Shd 1 can easily hit everything in the game if you work your levels correctly.

As far a Mature themes go, after the prologue virtually all of the adult themes can be avoided. Basically there isn't anything more scandalous than what would be found in a typical "bodice ripper" romance novel.

The main consideration on builds is that the module will drive the character's alignment toward Chaotic Evil unless the player is really good about the choices they make. Then probably Chaotic Neutral is about the best one can maintain.