Wizard buffs removed once rested, but you have to rest to switch spells. What's the point?

[-$ilver-]

At least starting out, you choose buffs based on you know you are going to need them. But you can not use them effectively, since the moment you rest and you have to rest in order to switch to attacking spells, both the effects leave and now you no longer have the buffs at the ready.

I understand you will eventually level and have more magic memorized at once and available. But why does the game give you so many spells up front, if you can not even use them properly? Just to say THAT's a Wizard class (more options, less casting) and THIS is a Sorcerer class (less options, more casting)? I also understand you have some cantrips to play around with as well, but it feels like a tease. A catch 22 if you will.

Edit: (Oh you...) and apparently I picked both the dire badger and the Shelgarn's Persistant Blade, since you know... a level 1 wizard is weak, but you can only have one summon out at a time and they or at least the blade summons, disappears within seconds. o_0 Looks like another reroll. Half the spells that sounded useful, seem completely useless out in the actual field, at least to a wet behind the ears student of magic. Now I know how Harry Potter must of felt...

[TheDiaz]

For one, this way we avoid exploits. Cast the buffs, change your spells, rest, cast even more buffs, change spells to offensive ones, rest. That sounds easy to exploit. You need to think what spells you want to use or not, and spells keep their usefulness as long as you know what you are doing with them, it pays to be prepared.

And if they are weak at low levels on what how many spells they have... is by design. You are meant to feel your character being weak at the beginning and a unstopable force when it gains levels.

Besides, why reroll a low level wizard? One of the advantages a wizard has is that it can learn spells from scrolls you can buy or find as long as it can learn spells from that level.

[Nebgama]

Balance

We are used to modern mmo if we have the spells we can cast all of them all of the time unless on CD.

I guess because of the nature of dnd then there needs to be some balance i guess this is how its done.

I am still learning but from what i have gathered so far the PC can become pretty OP if they were allowed to use all the spells you gotta synergize magic that complements each other and what you want to do at any given time.

Otherwise if you could use it all at once then you would be to strong.

Playing pally so there is lots of buffs i miss out on. I understand i felt the same at first and had all these spells i couldn't use but when I thought about it overtime i am starting to get used to it.

i guess because modules can be so diverse too so that is why there is a whole pool of spells straight away.

[Tesseract]

Originally posted by Nebgama:

I guess because of the nature of dnd then there needs to be some balance i guess this is how its done.

Resting in NWN is very strange compared to PnP, mainly because of multiplayer considerations. By D&D rules, a rest takes 8 hours. So the resting itself isn't what ends the spells in most cases, it's just that the spells have a duration of less than 8 hours. In NWN, it's almost exactly the opposite.

[DrLoboto]

The D&D system in terms of magic-users means weak apprentices, mighty wizards. You will have a rough start but become exponentially more powerful afterwards until you can kill whole groups with a single spell.

It's true that you can only have one summoned creature at a time in NWN, but contrary to the original rules, they stay with you for hours instead of just a few rounds. And don't forget you have a familiar, too. You can have the familiar and a summoned creature assisting you at the same time (if you feel frail, pick a tank like bear, wolf or panther as familiar). And equip a crossbow. You can't bombard enemies with spells yet, so pelt them with crossbow bolts instead (wizard's are not really good shots, but you will hit often enough to help your tank summons a bit; btw, your chance to hit with ranged weapons like crossbows depends on DEX not STR).

A wizard has one more advantage over a sorcerer that's worth considering: You can learn new spells from scrolls. If you find a scroll with a wizard spell that's not in your spellbook yet and that's of your casting level or below, you can right click on the scroll and scribe the spell. Afterwards you will be able to memorize it. So no need to reroll in order to pick new spells, you just need to find them as scrolls in the game (maybe a shop offers some, that would be a goal to save and spend your money for).

[-$ilver-]

Originally posted by TheDiaz:

For one, this way we avoid exploits. Cast the buffs, change your spells, rest, cast even more buffs, change spells to offensive ones, rest. That sounds easy to exploit. You need to think what spells you want to use or not, and spells keep their usefulness as long as you know what you are doing with them, it pays to be prepared.

And if they are weak at low levels on what how many spells they have... is by design. You are meant to feel your character being weak at the beginning and a unstopable force when it gains levels.

Besides, why reroll a low level wizard? One of the advantages a wizard has is that it can learn spells from scrolls you can buy or find as long as it can learn spells from that level.

It just seems as a wizard, the game gives you the tools in the beginning, but not the means to actually make use of them. I understand that over time you will level and become more powerful and being able to prepare more and more spells. But as I said, it feels like a tease at first.

For as many questions I ask on here, I research a LOT more on the internet. So I can spend quite a while making a character. To find out early on that it was all a waste in terms of actually getting to play said character, it is a bit of a downer.

You can either buff or don't buff. You can either summon this pet or that one, but not both. Four spells basically are automatically useless at first for my build. I should of chosen better, but only had I known better. The game did not really explain any of that. And some websites simply copy and paste what is already available in the game.

[TheDiaz]

I mean, wizards are normal people that started training magic by themselves. The description in game states that your character is not talented in magic, but it is what is practicing and studying. Sorcerers and Warlocks powers comes from raw talent or because they made a pact for their powers, or Druids with a deep connection with nature. You picked the class that was the weakest when starting with magic. DnD is a roleplay system, and the classes are built around this aspect.

I wonder what spells you are claiming are useless for you. Some spells become stronger when you get more levels and more useful, others depend on who you are fighting against with enemies with higher HD increasing their use. Other spells become useless as you grow in power or enemies become stronger as they will only work against low HD enemies.

And as someone that has played wizard and prefers magic users, is not a matter if you can buff or not, is a matter of what you think is more convenient or what is your strategy for the next battle. If you are playing the original campaign is easy to just summon something, buff it and shoot with a crossbow on lower levels. Or buff yourself and be a battlemage, or use crowd control to manage combat for your henchmen and summon. You are meant to figure this out by yourself.

[DrLoboto]

Well, what do you want us to say? :)

The game is old, it does not explain a lot, it's easier to understand with some basic knowledge of D&D, true, but it is what it is. There is an excellent wiki that answers a lot of questions, but it is on a site you avoid. I still feel like you're overthinking things. You won't fail because you picked two useless spells or something, especially not as a wizard (and as a sorcerer, you can switch spells on every level up). You learn by playing; I hardly ever had to reroll a character, just because my choices for it were not 100% perfect.

[-$ilver-]

Originally posted by Nebgama:

Balance

We are used to modern mmo if we have the spells we can cast all of them all of the time unless on CD.

Not sure what CD is, but yes to everything else.

Originally posted by DrLoboto:

It's true that you can only have one summoned creature at a time in NWN, but contrary to the original rules, they stay with you for hours instead of just a few rounds. And don't forget you have a familiar, too. You can have the familiar and a summoned creature assisting you at the same time (if you feel frail, pick a tank like bear, wolf or panther as familiar). And equip a crossbow. You can't bombard enemies with spells yet, so pelt them with crossbow bolts instead (wizard's are not really good shots, but you will hit often enough to help your tank summons a bit; btw, your chance to hit with ranged weapons like crossbows depends on DEX not STR).

A wizard has one more advantage over a sorcerer that's worth considering: You can learn new spells from scrolls. If you find a scroll with a wizard spell that's not in your spellbook yet and that's of your casting level or below, you can right click on the scroll and scribe the spell. Afterwards you will be able to memorize it. So no need to reroll in order to pick new spells, you just need to find them as scrolls in the game (maybe a shop offers some, that would be a goal to save and spend your money for).

I chose the pixie and named her T'nk. I am hoping she will be able to handle most traps herself and open locks. A crossbow wizard or sorcerer just sounds odd. o_0 But if it works, it works. =P Yes I liked the idea of being able to find usable spells on the go and integrate them into your repertoire. Just the very limited nature of starting a wizard through me off. I rerolled for a sorcerer and I am better able to just go with the flow.

[allenayen96]

Your Pixie will handle all traps and open all locks.

[-$ilver-]

Originally posted by TheDiaz:

I wonder what spells you are claiming are useless for you. Some spells become stronger when you get more levels and more useful, others depend on who you are fighting against with enemies with higher HD increasing their use. Other spells become useless as you grow in power or enemies become stronger as they will only work against low HD enemies

I started with both the badger and Shelgarn's Persistant Blade. Since you can only have one summon out at a time and the Blade is gone in a minute anyway, feels like a waste.

I also had the Magic Armour and Weapon Enchantment. But since you can only have two readied spells, the moment you cast and then add offensive spells and rest to ready them, you've already lost the buffs. And although you have a few cantrips to still attack with, it just seems that combination was wasted.

Originally posted by DrLoboto:

There is an excellent wiki that answers a lot of questions, but it is on a site you avoid. I still feel like you're overthinking things. You won't fail because you picked two useless spells or something, especially not as a wizard (and as a sorcerer, you can switch spells on every level up). You learn by playing; I hardly ever had to reroll a character, just because my choices for it were not 100% perfect.

That site seems to copy and paste what the game already tells you. Unless I am missing something, like other pages, it is not explaining much. Maybe a few tables or charts. I do not expect a 100% character. I avoid guides for that reason, at least for a first play through. And yet I also do not want to be gimped.

[YaoiCatboy]

Two more things a wizard is better in than a sorcerer:
1.) You get a wizard bonus feat on lvl 5, 10, 15 and 20. Tho you may only be able to choose between feats that do something with magic. (like spellfocus). But in the end you should have more talents than a sorc.

2.) Your spells per day depend on INT not CHA (for sorcerer). As a side effect you will have more skillpoints as a sorc, because those are also defined by INT.

..
But somehow i prefer to play sorcs. xD

Anyway you need to survive close combat situations. DEX helps you getting some extra ArmorClass. Same goes for the TUMBLE skill. Also Tumble helps you to run away without getting hit by those free attacks you provoke while doing a move/cast action while in meele range of someone.

For other buffs check their durations. A round is 6 seconds. A phase is 60 seconds. So for buff spells I prefer those things that last long. "Mage Armor" is usualy your first choice as a defense buff. "Shield" instead doesnt last long enough when having a low level.
Later you should be fine with stoneskin spell.

[TheDiaz]

Magic armour and magic weapon are specially great spells early game. You just need to decide what spells you want to get ready for the enxt encounters. And the summon lasts longer when you gain some levels. As I said, is all about preparation and anticipation. The spells you have are meant to be used on different types of situations that can help you, but you cannot cover everything all the time.

If you can make all the enemies sleep or daze the strong enemy, you think you really need those bonuses from Magic armor?

[-$ilver-]

Originally posted by YaoiCatboy:

But somehow i prefer to play sorcs. xD

Same goes for the TUMBLE skill. Also Tumble helps you to run away without getting hit by those free attacks you provoke while doing a move/cast action while in meele range of someone.

For other buffs check their durations. A round is 6 seconds. A phase is 60 seconds. So for buff spells I prefer those things that last long. "Mage Armor" is usualy your first choice as a defense buff. "Shield" instead doesnt last long enough when having a low level.
Later you should be fine with stoneskin spell.

I rerolled a sorcerer myself. I am having a better time with him, as you have less of a choice, but again the choices seemed impractical anyway starting, and I get to cast more often. Chose a human this time for the extra feat and skill points and chose the two feats that you have to take at starting or you can not take later- Soul something and Luck something. I assume combat casting I can pick up in time.

I figured I would play a warlock of sorts or a fighting sorcerer, since he can at least use normal weapons. So I took tumble, either 1 or 2 points, I think I may have a point or two saved so I can add later.

Yes I had missed the duration times when I first started. Was shocked to see the Shield buff disappear and the Blade summon disappear shortly afterwards.

[Nebgama]

Originally posted by Tesseract:

Originally posted by Nebgama:

I guess because of the nature of dnd then there needs to be some balance i guess this is how its done.

Resting in NWN is very strange compared to PnP, mainly because of multiplayer considerations. By D&D rules, a rest takes 8 hours. So the resting itself isn't what ends the spells in most cases, it's just that the spells have a duration of less than 8 hours. In NWN, it's almost exactly the opposite.

isn't resting still like over a time span of hours in the nwn though? even though its a few seconds. Of course 8 hrs literally is not going to work in nwn because its not realistic with the exact same happening on paper ppl are not going to sit there for 8 hrs or come back 8 hrs later etc.

Im pretty sure its still the same concept though regardless It still works in the exact same way and the buffs drop off.

I don't know the real paper game never played it i know some aspects possibly would be missing or slightly different in nwn because they would not translate or simulate well into a video game.

Edit: sorry what i am trying to say is how is it the exact opposite?

[-$ilver-]

Originally posted by TheDiaz:

Magic armour and magic weapon are specially great spells early game. You just need to decide what spells you want to get ready for the enxt encounters. And the summon lasts longer when you gain some levels. As I said, is all about preparation and anticipation. The spells you have are meant to be used on different types of situations that can help you, but you cannot cover everything all the time.

If you can make all the enemies sleep or daze the strong enemy, you think you really need those bonuses from Magic armor?

That's the thing though. From my point of view and inexperience, the buffs sound great, thus why I chose them. But you can not use them if you are preparing for the next encounter, because you have to ready your attack magic and rest. This all may be a mute point in a few levels down the road. But in the very beginning it doesn't do much good to have buffs you can not use, because you need the attack spells. Or just rely on your summons I suppose. But that changes how I view a wizard.

Also the next encounter is the same as the next one and the next one after that. Again at the very beginning at least. You turn a corner and you have a mob. You turn the next corner, another mob. You go into a house, a third mob. You go into the dungeon, a fourth mob. And they are all the same mobs. And you either buff or use attack spells. But you can not do both, minus what cantrips you already have.

I just rerolled a sorcerer and am enjoying the more direct, even if limiting approach. Even though wizardry is limiting due to the nature of magic and what you can have memorized at a time to start with. It's all an illusion if you will, pun intended. =P
Perhaps when I get enough experience playing a magic user sorcerer, I can move onto the more options of a wizard. =)