Monk Maximum Attack Per Round?

[Valzt]

I'm trying to make a Monk/Rogue/Shadow Dancer build in Arelith PW. The main idea is to get maximum or near maximum attack per round with some sneak attacks and HIPS. However, there is a conflicting information regarding monk attack per round progression on nwn.fandom.com.

On the APR page, it says monk gets a maximum of 6 attacks per round (before flurry of blows) starting at monk level 16:
https://nwn.fandom.com/wiki/Attacks_per_round#:~:text=The%20term%20attacks%20per%20round,unarmed%20or%20with%20a%20kama.

On the monk class page however, it says monk gets a maximum of 5 attacks per round (before flurry of blows) starting at monk level 18:
https://nwn.fandom.com/wiki/Monk

I hope I understand both well enough to know that these two are conflicting. If so, which one is correct? Because I'm trying to adjust rogue or shadow dancer levels based on monk levels.

Thank you in advance.

[grraf]

https://nwn.fandom.com/wiki/Monk this is what u want look further down on the article to see what needs to be done to reach 10strikes per round dual wielding kamas(need to multiclass to max out yr BaB) or 9strikes unarmed(multiclass & pick up circle kick(tho u may not want to due to it switching yr active target )
BTW rogue/assassin levels stacked on an improved KO monk is going to be tons of fun.

My favorite abuse of this theme is the elvish 6monk/6blackguard/xx assassin-->a boat load of free monk feats(including disease immunity&extra 20% move speed) a very high 1d6 sneak dmg multiplyer along with assassins paralize&darkness&invisibility(50% concealment gives mad survivability) u also get a lovely succubus assistant to throw tentacles/lighting bolts&haste allies&backstab&level drain OR act as a sacrificial decoy when things get too rough...u also get the benefit of active scouting at full speed as elf andis impossible to incur multiclass penalties since u just stack 2 prestige classes on top of a base class). Yeah i know 7blackguard levels instead of 6 will net an extra 1d6 death attack but i just can't bare to loose my lovely succubus assistant in exchange for a doom(dumb ?!) knight that simply charges in for a quick death in melee)
Other viable builds are these:
4monk/4fig/xx assassin(or rogue) ->u get access to weapon specialization(and if u so desire can also aim to pick up improved weapon specialization in order to better cope with some sneak att immune creatures)
4monk/4paladin/xx rogue->u are immune to disease&fear while also retaining the ability to use smite&protect from evil
4monk/5ranger/xx assassin(or rogue) this one gets free infravison(ranger spell) and a +2dmg vs 2 preferred opponent types along with probably the most disgusting amount of free feats.

Regarding monk levels is usually best to quit on them early on(4th level is a good point(u don't waste bab) also 6th level is decent(disease immunity&the free ko feats but this forces u to take up 6levels of a full bab class to maximize yr number of att per round) last viable monk ditching point for most people is lvl9 to gain the improved evasion if u don't have another class that covers that for you(i don't consider having this a necessity as spell casters are usually the first thing to go down when i step out of the shadows so to speak)

BTW not saying hide in plain sight is not strong quite the opposite but well used invisibility&darkness from an assassin is so much more brutal usually resulting in no need to ever retreat since everyone either gets immobilised by the death attacks/can't reliably hit u trough 50%concealment or is flat on theyr back from improved knockdown while barring dragons and some very adventurous multiclassed spellcasters no one dares to try and chase after you in the middle of a darkess area...

PS:that wikia pretty much covers all u ever need to know about the game along with giving some external links to some old forums containing some of the most ingenious&broken builds known to mankind(haven't seen ♥♥♥♥ till u meet colorfull fellows like the monk dragon druid: http://world-of-greyhawk.github.io/builds/data/request306817.html)

[Valzt]

Wow that's a lot to take in. However, in Arelith PW taking Assassin class involves some RP with the DMs and I rather not do it with me being new in Arelith and all. However, I've decided on Rogue 17/Monk 3/Shadowdancer 10. Indeed it doesn't have maximum APR, but it does have 9 APR with haste, plethora of skill points, HiPS, tons of sneak attack, and cool shadow underling to helps me do sneak attacks.

There is one thing I need to ask though, do I *really* need knockdown/improved knockdown? Because if so, maybe I should take Rogue 14/Monk 6/Shadowdancer 10.

[grraf]

Yeah its a must have because it not only tosses smb to the floor for a while making him unable to strike at you but also while hes down all yr strikes become sneak att(since u will have some from yr rogue levels) unless the enemy is immune to those in wich case its even more important to have KOed that enemy since u are in for the long slug exchange and the best way to avoid taking dmg is to either have a ton of concealment or ensure the enemy doesn't get to strike you at all(KOed to the floor for most of the fight...

Some argue its same $hit having either called shot or KO to cheese trough the difficult opponents but let us not forget that smb still standing and striking at you can still land a lucky 20roll and crit clap u into oblivion despite u stacking countless debuf strikes to hes arms while smb lying on hes back is the only one getting clapped and is much easier to hit while down(and if hes also not immune to sneak att then hes even less likely to be getting up at all), further u are much more likely to succeed on a roll with a +4(improved KO) then on one with -4 bonus attached... The argument in favor of picking up called shot instead of improved KO can be made if u don't plan to stack any rogue/assassin/blackguard levels on yr char or u just know the module is chock full of giants&dragons(u ain't tripping those trust me)

BTW if u are to drop levels of smth then confidently drop the shadow dancer levels(theyr f'in useless for the most part anyways) level7 is the most you should bother with as u still get all the bonus special feats&along with the shadow fiend(its lord version u will gladly trade away for a few extra 1d6 coming from rogue levels OR the improved KO&disease immunity&10% more speed from the extra monk levels)

[n00bdragon]

It's important to consider a few things when playing these high sneak attack damage builds:
1. Your AB will be garbage. You're already dealing with at least -5 AB behind a full BAB class, but you're dual wielding (-2), and spamming knockdown (-4). Just don't even bother flurrying (-2 more).
2. Consider that your attack roll is what is used to determine the difficulty of the discipline check needed to resist your knockdown. Anything with a whiff of Discipline will never fail your knockdown check.
3. That's assuming you can hit them at all in the first place with your AB being -11 (at least!) from wherever the module designer is expecting a player's AB to be at your level.

Sneak attacks absolutely rip up targets with poor AC, but fare extremely poorly against high AC targets, things with discipline scores, and of course undead and oozes and elementals and dragons and half the monsters in the game. If you're playing on Arelith you can expect monster AC to not be that high so there's a chance you'll still tag some hits on things, but at -11 you'll be whiffing A LOT. If you ever have the misfortune of being attacked by another player though you should use your monk speed to flee, because you will only hit them on a 20. Average max level player ACs are in the 40s. Good ones are in the 50s. Stellar ACs are 60+.

[grraf]

Yeah n00bdragon u are are on point with yr observation that build he's going after won't be landing that many shots for him...

Wich is another reason why i recommend Monk/blackguard/assassin instead since remaining on the full the 3/4 BaB is not ideal but mixing in a few levels of full BaB class tends to help out a lot(hence a blackguard also packing in extra sneaks,along side a bulls str(umm we do realize we don't have to aim for a dex build yes ?) and also staking some UMD accuracy boosters(black guard's bull also stacks with normal bull's from spells/scrolls))) ...
But you are also forgetting another important fact here: we are aiming to take advantage of the monk's unarmed progression that is 3 instead of the normal 5(so while the initial strike is quite a bit less accurate the folowing ones are as accurate as a fighter's ex: 20/15/10/5 vs 16/13/10/7/4(with a minimal 4level dip into a full BaB class) further more since we are talking about a stealth monk build u will likely open up against a flat footed target when it counts thus making the initial KO shots easier to land, as for the opposed discipline check lets just say its a guaranteed success vs those that haven't maxed out theyr discipline while vs those that have it will be a coin toss... this is the point where the quad whammy strategy is usefull(wich is why i advocate assassin instead of shadow dancer: so we passed the IKO check fine.... next is the assassin paralysis check.... made it past that as well...sure next is the one from the weapon's on hit effect... still in business ?! well screw you too its time to run into the darkness cast invisibility and pull out the UMD scrolls u stocked up for a rainy day...)
Also depending on yr mood u may wish to jump the shark and also add the epic vrock for some extra muscle if that is more yr style and prefer to own a much better BaB in exchange for losing a few sneak attacks(every 3lvs(atfter ther 10th) instead of every two being the trade off if u decide to lower yr assassin levels)... that is the beauty of having 2 prestige classes stacked on top of a base class(u get dwarf&elf access and those are borderline OP) is that u can raise each one freely from the others with no penalties at all ensuring that based upon yr research of the world u will get into u can be flexible in both equipment(UMD) but can also have the flexibility to customize the amount of dependence on sneak att or just raw power.

[Valzt]

Wow can't believe I'm having this much build advice on steam for this old game. However as I said, I'm not gonna put a level into assassin because it forces me to do some limited RP. And after reading what you guys wrote, I think I'm gonna like Rogue 14/Monk 3/Shadowdancer 13. The epic shadowlord really helps in making sneak attacks.

[red255]

the game engine limit is 10 APR.

the BAB of a level 20 monk is 15, which gets them 5 main hand attacks +1 flurry + 2 offhand
f they had 16 BAB from taking enough fighter it would be 6 main hand attacks. +1 flurry + 2 offhand.+1 haste

theoretically 20 BAB is possible from a fighter 20 monk 1. or if you really wanted to munchkin it fighter 10 weapon master 10 monk 1. using a kama obviously.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2194089317

6 main hand attacks. before flurry.

[Valzt]

Originally posted by red255:

the game engine limit is 10 APR.

the BAB of a level 20 monk is 15, which gets them 5 main hand attacks +1 flurry + 2 offhand
f they had 16 BAB from taking enough fighter it would be 6 main hand attacks. +1 flurry + 2 offhand.+1 haste

theoretically 20 BAB is possible from a fighter 20 monk 1. or if you really wanted to munchkin it fighter 10 weapon master 10 monk 1. using a kama obviously.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2194089317

6 main hand attacks. before flurry.

Yes, I'm aware. But again, I'm making this build for Arelith PW which doesn't allow 1 level of multiclassing.

[Shiroi Ren]

You need only 18 BAB for 6 APR. So... You need only 12 full attack levels as far as I remember right.

[n00bdragon]

You only need 16 BAB for 6 APR as a monk. 18 would hypothetically grant you a 7th if the game didn't hard limit you to 6 regular main-hand attacks.

[wendigo211]

I don't know what changes Arelith made, but Cleric (Divine Power) is another way to extend your Monk APR and, more than likely exceed the AB of the Fighter/Monk Hybrids (+the extra attack is at full AB). RPwise Cleric and Monk also fit together nicely. That said, spell changes, rest restrictions and/or dispelling enemies could tank the concept.

[grraf]

Originally posted by wendigo211:

I don't know what changes Arelith made, but Cleric (Divine Power) is another way to extend your Monk APR and, more than likely exceed the AB of the Fighter/Monk Hybrids (+the extra attack is at full AB). RPwise Cleric and Monk also fit together nicely. That said, spell changes, rest restrictions and/or dispelling enemies could tank the concept.

Yep cheers for reminding use about that one as it can indeed be a top notch build as well albeit it forces you to ditch dwarf&elf(multiclass penalties will wreck u otherwise) while also turning you into a bit more hands on caster due to the rather short duration of divine power(sometimes u forget about it/are out of charges)... haven't used it in quite a while but recall it being rather strong but a bit to micro intense for my taste(can't even recall if the spell respects the monk uBaB schedule of 3 or uses the fighter's standard 5 one(there were some issues with it functioning correctly around the time i stopped using it... don't know its current status tho(seems it works correctly now but u need a $hit ton of cleric levels to extend the duration of it to ensure it lasts for a long battle))

[Valzt]

Yes well the epic shadowlord is more than making up for the lost APR.Why would I want my character to get 10 APR if I can get 9 APR AND a shadow copy of my character with the same APR?

[grraf]

Valzt amigo stop doing smack the shadow u summon is likely the worst special companion summon barring perhaps the blackguard's ghast or a low level rangers animal companion... not only that but its also bugged to hell and back this is what u actually get:
https://nwn.fandom.com/wiki/Shadow --->in its weakist form
https://nwn.fandom.com/wiki/Shadow_lord_(shadowdancer) ---> in its strongest form
Now contrast that to this gal: https://nwn.fandom.com/wiki/Succubus_(summon) that the blackguard gets for just a 5level dip and its pretty much on par stats wise with the shadow lord except she's not bugged can haste(you/herself) shoot lightning and toss AoE tentacles and level drain in melee or if u just want some real raw power get the epic vrok with hes upwards of 300hp and a decent enough bab to actually hit smth

PS:U DO NOT SUMMON A COPY OF YRSELF with the shadow summon all u get is a puny 1 att per round minion that bugs out doing nothing for most combats and can't hit the broad side of a barn lol

[n00bdragon]

He's referring to Arelith changes to the summon which make it a copy of the user.