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Can you please report them on support.baldursgate.com ?
There is absolutely no excuse for complaining about people not RPing, then failing to spend the minimal amount of time that it would take to explain this in-character.
And to answer, no, taking a career and stopping it all the sudden is not like taking a year of college. In D&D, you have to find a master who will maybe accept to train you and there are numerous reason why he wouldn't do it. Getting trained in a field requires time and engagement. It's not a simple matter of studying and giving up. There is a question of morality. Also, being trained is not offered to just about anyone, the masters are delivering their secrets and don't do it for just anyone (rich or not)
The strongest characters in the world (heroes like Drizzt and such) do not do this, only players do it.
Things like being a thief and wanting to be trained as a warrior, it's a straight no ! A thief with no honor won't be trained by noble warriors.
The problem is also how points are allocated during the character that precise character build. It's not because the rules allows something that it should be accepted. In many case, it's a matter of poeple writing rules who couldn't think of just about every crazy things the players will do.
I'd say you need to re-examine your view of classes and the fantasy world. You seem to be of the mindset that classes are very rigid and cookie cutter in their mentality and personalities.
Using your thief and warrior example, you imply that all warriors (or fighters in game terms) are honorable or noble. This is simply.not the case, are there are hundreds or thousands of dishonorable warriors out there. Evil ones, dirty ones. Thugs can have levels of fighter while using dirty fighting tactics. They may not have ever had formal training, and learned their skills in the streets being thugs and whatnot.
Taking a level in thief may fit with the character development in a more fluid way as well. For example it's not too hard to imagine a ranger finding some notes or.guide to lockpixking off a corpse in the forest. A rogue may have been killed by a pack of wolves, left the backpack of the rogue untouched, the ranger finds it and reads the guide, gains a basic understanding of locks, and thus learns a little. Enough to translate into a single level of rogue. This is by no way an expert rogue or thief, and no level 1 class of any sort is an expert, but it explaina how a charavter can come by the some of the skills that are part of being a rogue.
In regards to schooling, it can very much be like that. No degree is as simple as taking a single, focused course. In the first and second years you must take a broad spectrum.of.classes that all pertain to your chosen end goal. A biologist must take some writing and math courses for example. Who can day how such training or schooling is structured in a given fantasy world?
Granted, some folks prefer to min/max and calculate the most effective or powerful class and skill choices based on numbers, and that's entirely fine too. This is the greatest thing about nwn and all RPG's. You can play the game as you see fit! And if your personal.view is that it feels cheap or meta-gamery, you are all too welcome to build your character as you see fit. So long as you allow others players to enjoy the game as they do, too. And that's often one of the biggest hurdles to overcome when seeking a group of people to play qith. Everyone getting along and blending their philosophies of the game and the game world so everyone can have fun together. If viewpoints are too different, sometimes the players don't fit at the table and it's time to think about finding a different group to play with.
Back to the grave You foul beast!
*looking in despertion for a cleric*
Look I can blind it with it with Sunburst, but we need a cleric to put this thread to bed!
Have fun :)
If you focus the the sorcerer aspect around no save spells and most importantly around buff spells (Mage armour, prot from evil, ability buffs, flame weapon , prot from elem, COn and str ability buffs, mind prot, imp invis, true seeing, premonition etc etc... GTr sanctuary and BBoD for when you want to hide.., 9th level summon to distract... ) Get enough epic levels(23)/spellcraft points (see wiki) to get epic spell: warding.. all the while increasing STR like a fighter would, it can work. AN arcane ..(? What were they called?) in DA :O ?
You really want the rod of buffing from the vault tho or a keyboard that does macros for the buffs for that build tho *grin*.
Have fun :)
As I said, it's abusing the rules.
Even if you can explain it in a RP way, it still doesn't fit the universe.
It's really a superposition of our actual society in the world of D&D.
The way you explain it make it seems like just anybody can do it.
It's min-maxing the stats in order to get an OP character. While it can happen exceptionally, it's not something common.
An evil character is not going to train you just because you "ask him" or even pay him enough. An evil character will instead rob you, leave you somewhere alone without equipment or maybe even kill you rather than taking the time to train you.
And if he trains you, you'd better be ready to owe him big time because he's not going to do it unless that serves him. Not counting how you're wasting his time (+training requires you to leave your "group" of players for quite a while)
Knowing how players love to abuse the rules, that abuse of rules is something you will see frequently. "oooh you can do that? I'll do that too then !!"
And you end up with a bunch of people with classes which don't make any sense.
But as I mentioned in the OP, do that in a diablo-style game where RP doesn't matter and go kill dragons by the dozen all alone.
RP speaking, travellling in a world full of players with weird builds like that who all get to be stronger than the actual heroes of the realm is totally abusive to my taste.
Especially when you look at those heroes, getting stronger than them is not something which should happen over the course of a couple years. (or less)
If you want to do it, you need a serious background which makes sense and happens during the adventure because it makes absolutely no sense why a warrior, trained as such, would want all of a sudden to be trained as a thief just a little bit then get trained as a druid. (and don't get some excuse related to alignment because if you start as neutral good, you won't get neutral evil all of a sudden either just to be able to be an assassin)
Those builds have been made by players who studied the game mechanics a bit too much in order to beat the game by themselves. (especially when NWN is a game where you will play alone most the time instead of in a group like you should be)
Okay, so lets focus on the idea of classes and being 'trained' in a various different classes doesnt make sense and is abuse of the rules or 'cheating.'
Your original post brings up taking one level of fighter or druid or whatever in order to gain something specific either from that class, or to gain the prerequisite for a specific prestige class. Such as the example you then used, a cleric that takes 2 levels of bard to be able to go RDD.
Which can absolutely make sense and not just in some sort of superficial magical manner. Imagine a person devoted to Tiamat as a cleric and has a penchant for music and song. Hymns, for example, the sort you may find being sung in a church, praise for their deity. There may be a natural talent for such, or a passing interest. So they take up learning how to play a harp in their rest or down times. While collecting lore and reading holy books pertaining to their order and to Tiamat herself, they find they have draconic blood in their veins, and follow that thread out of curiosity, thus progressing towards RDD.
There are plenty of ways to make things logical and reasonable, any choice can be explained with a path of progression, character-wise.
A fighter that learns some of the tricks of a rogue does not make them a rogue. Knowing how to pick locks and move silently, while retaining their fighting skills, does not require intense tutelage of a master rogue, and they dont have to prove their pickpocketing skills to know how to pick a lock or disarm a trap or strike a vital spot when the enemy isnt looking.
Class levels are more often NOT specifically trained, either. You usually level up in the midst of your adventure, you dont come out of college with 8 class levels of whatever you choose. And when you take a level if a new class, you dont have to go back to school or even find any sort of tutor or master to train you. It can happen naturally and fluidly as you go through the campaign.
Yes, I agree some changes are far more jarring than others. If youre a sorceror trekking through a jungle, it is not exactly likely youre going to suddenly turn your focus into being a ShadowDancer, so you can get some damage reduction. Its not impossible for a sorceror to start relying more on stealth skills to survive in the jungle, and in turn develop into a character that more fits with the shadowdancer class, but its not very likely in most circumstances.
But more often you find adventurers honing their skills or finding new ones along the route, which develop into taking various class levels out of interest or need rather than seeking tutelage. You could even see those couple levels of wizard or thief or whatever as a stepping stone towards the characters ultimate goals and ambitions. A fighter that wants to learn the art of necromancy and everlasting life, but has no use or devotion to the gods, may want to be a pale master. But the only way to learn the skills they desire, they must first learn to cast arcane spells, and so they collect books found on their journeys, read what they can from libraries, practice their skills, learn from other wizards, on their way towards their necromantic goals.
One final thing, you bring up the 2 levels of bard, on a cleric. Maybe its the other way around? You start off as a bard, trained and skilled enough to make a few coins in the tavern with your lute. But along your journeys you end up becoming more religious, devoting most of your songs to Tiamat or some such, and in turn Tiamat blesses you to do her will, giving you a seed of power to start your transition into a RDD.
The only real limit is your imagination. But, if you choose youd rather restrict yourself on the basis of 'it doesnt make sense,' then you are free to do that, too. No one can tell you how you are supposed to enjoy the game or world, after all!
You might see a warrior training as a rogue as long as he doesn't use stealth because I saw people who wanted to be as silent as a fox while wearing a full plate armor but as you said just to learn to disarm traps and whatnot.
You can always find something to make a "realistic" story sticking with the char. you're making. As long as, as a player, you make your character have that goal from the start for a valid reason.
Though seeing all players starting to do that for the sake of being more powerful is completely bogus. My problem is how powerful you become by using those tricks and start to ridiculize characters such as Drizzt who achieved it's strength over the course of his life.
While as a player, you achieve that over the course of an adventure.
If you become a druid, you wanted it, your goal in your life is to become one and study as such to be one, protect nature, .... So you'd rather have a mighty good reason to start learning another career. Because your character is not a "player", he has a goal and a mindset so why would he change all the sudden? What is the order going to think about you when you do that? Because they raise you with a particular mindset too.
And you don't see NPC running around with 3 or 4 different classes either.
You know, you're right there are so many ways to find why one would do that but if it was so easy and it makes you so powerful, then you should see everybody doing that.
Better, that precise skill you're looking for would become an entire part of that class since the order would probably acknowledge it and include this type of training.
Many characters stay 100% their class because there's a philosophy behind all that.
And characters in that world don't have access to a compedium of all classes and all the bonuses each one could possibily provide them. As a druid, why do you want to use a bastard sword? Why do you want to be trained as a warrior? Druids can fight, they're being taught how with their own weapons, there's no reason they start using bastard swords. Only players who want to optimise do that. The character falls in love all of a sudden with that weapon? And when you train you follow a teacher, he becomes your role model... So what reason might your character have to do that?
I know all players will find a way (be it RP or not) to get a valid reason but it still doesn't add up when you look at the different orders and what people usually do in that world.
That's why I wanted to avoid weird classes. Bi-classed characters, I have no problem with, more than that? It becomes less and less cohesive.
You can build single-class characters if you want to, but claiming that it's because of an RP perspective just feels like lazy writing. Take it from someone who has played a 6 Int character AS a 6 Int character: If you put effort into it, most builds can be explained in a logical manner appropriate to the setting. But you have to put in that effort.
Of course but nowadays it's very very common to see these kind of attitudes with people studying a bit of this, a bit of that... and ending not mastering anything.
Look at the D&D world and all characters around you...
You get characters with 1 or 2 classes. And it's logical because of how the world is build.
You can get, as I explained above, characters with a bit of this and a bit of that but really, it's rare.
Again, my issue is how many many players will do this (even if they can explain in a RP way, it's still not something that should happen THAT oftenly, D&D is not a 21st century world... In the middle age, you really didn't see people with this many knowledge and switching vocation over and over. If you were a warrior, you were a warrior and you would not start being an erudit)
Also, let's not be confused with something like basic knowledge everybody can get without studying. In D&D it would be similar to a knight who once saw a rogue disarming a simple trap so he think he can do it too. It's not because you have 0 in an attribute that you cannot attempt to do something, you might even get extremely lucky and succeed disarming that simple trap which you would have see by succeeding an "alertness" roll.
Doesn't mean you did study disarming or being a rogue, doesn't mean you get a point in that class. You can always do anything you like, you're just not good in it as would be a pro. (really, nowadays it's the same story)
But it's a totally different story to have one or two level in a class, 18 in another, 8 in again another and again 12 in another which as a result makes you stronger that the strongest people of the entire realm.
I know you can explain it in a RP way but what's the reasoning for the character to do that in a world where litteraly nobody does that other than "as a player, I studied the rules and discovered this combo is going to make me totally OP against dragons"?
And besides that, medieval knights were expected to be well versed in multiple areas. They were expected to know how to fight, they were expected to know tactics, they were expected to know diplomacy. Some were better than others in each of these areas, but it was expected of all of them. If anything, soldiers today are more specialized than they used to be because it's impossible for one to know everything there is to know about, say, operating an aircraft carrier.
As for why a character might be completely overpowered against dragons, that's a pretty easy one to come up with: Their village was burned down as a child, so they poured their time and energy into studying to eventually take revenge against the dragon that slaughtered their family and neighbors. If a character wants to focus in being the foremost dragon hunter in the world: Let them.
As a GM, there are certain things that certainly shouldn't be allowed. I'd never let someone play Pun-Pun for obvious reasons; but we're not talking about Pun-Pun here. You can make a solid argument that the game is too loose with alignment (IE you keep your full paladin abilities even if you're no longer LG), and I'd probably agree there. But this? This is the sort of creativity that makes RPGs so much fun.
But it sounds to me you're more looking for something like Mount and Blade or Kingdom Come rather than Neverwinter Nights to begin with.
I understand the reasoning of why people consider it a little OP that players can choose classes and be able to gain and forever retain certain feats/skills from that particular class with minimal "training" or leveling in other words. I somewhat agree, especially coming from an RP server player/DM, I do see some players putting in a couple of Monk levels *just* for the saving throws boost or a couple of fighter levels for the extra feats and I'm sure there's other examples of minimal leveling for added bonuses. Maybe you're suggesting that those level 1 or 2 or 3 bonuses you get should be pushed up higher when you're multi-classing so people can't just multi-class 1 or 2 levels for specific bonuses. Even if you do multi-class it's not always beneficial in the long run. I'd rather be a level 20 wizard than a level 9 wizard/11 fighter or some other multi-class combo. I guess it maybe depends on situations too but still.
The thing is at the end of the day it's a video game, and no one's really looking for the most realistic game, especially a realistic fantasy D&D game. Realistic in terms of like level progression and stats and attributes. If that were the case you'd be starting off as a baby with like 3 points in strength, dex, int, wis, and you'd have to play for like 30 years to be somewhat fit of adventuring. People don't want to sink in hours of gameplay for minimal rewards, and if you want more realism in D&D that becomes more difficult because you'd also need to "maintain" certain skills/knowledge so you don't forget them. And that can take up more of your time, and people don't have the time to play games 24/7. Like sure if you learn to ride a bike you don't really forget how to do that, but I also learned geometry stuff and not using it for years I don't even remember the name of a 9-sided shape. And language is similar too in that you need to constantly work at it and not speaking a language you begin to lose that skill. I'm sure developers have thought of making games with more realism like that, but would you really want to play that game if they told you it was so real that you could level up your character and have them learn skills but also forget them, and you'd have to maintain those skills and build your own homes and defend them and go shopping and pay taxes and fight monsters raiding villages and if you don't do that enough your character starts getting dumber and less combat-ready and weapons degrade even when you're not online? I'm already struggling in the real world, I don't want to struggle in a virtual one too. It's a world full of magic, so it's hard to complain about things not being real enough.
Fantasy games are always going to have very weird characters and builds, there's magic in the universe so it's not unrealistic to see a Deekin-like kobold bard. Hell, even in semi-real world/magic universe like Game of Thrones there's people somehow switching dead faces/bodies like it's just a normal Tuesday. That's part of what makes fantasy/D&D interesting is the unique storylines of people. Even though it may not make sense to have like a halfling druid/paladin, if you can make a storyline work then cool, but that's also not a requirement if you're just playing NWN's campaigns. If you're playing on an RP server then it'd be good to have a story beforehand that has some connection to those classes. I guess that brings up a point of whether you're a casual D&D player or a more serious story-driven player, there's room for both. I will say I've played NWN for a long time now, and a lot of years playing RP servers, and the more I play the more I'm willing to make builds that aren't necessarily OP, I just like the challenge and I know what I'm doing to make it somewhat manageable. It's hard to force someone to think of story-lines for their odd-built character if all they want to do is just play the game to play the game, not play the game to play the character.
Forgotten Realms is heavily based on the middle age and yes, while not accurate, they're not meant to be, they certainly are very close.
The knights who were versed into tactics and such were not legion, only a few nobles were trained as such.
In the middle age, warriors were trained with swords and bows, thus, having 2 classes, Example: archer/warrior is totally fine and makes sense.
Reaching warrior 20 and following prestige class also makes sense, having a second prestige class, why not? You study and you keep improving in direction that makes sense to your class.
If being multiclass was such a necessity in D&D, the most powerful heroes should also have these kind of builds, but they don't and they should stay more powerful than players.
There's a reason they reached that amount of power and it's not given to anyone to be that strong.
Killing dragons is not something easy, they're among the most powerful creatures of that universe, they are certainly not common either to the point that anyone can start training to kill them. Even less alone.
It's a matter of being cohesive with the universe...
Of course you can always abuse the rules and just do better but it doesn't make much sense in the universe.
Keep the OP multi-class with weird leveling to non-RP diablo-like worlds where you slay dragons at the end of every dungeon. The rules allows it, have fun !
In official RP worlds, keep that away ! You're a character that makes sense, who is supposed to feel lucky to be trained in a special class and would have few reasons to start studying 2 or 3 levels of another class in order to benefit from a certain perk.
If you're trained as a druid, you aquire their mentality so starting to study a few level of warriors in order to use bastard sword doesn't make any sense as much as you can explain it in a RP way.
Well, you see, it's the entire point of this conversation, it's about being cohesive with the universe.
Of course it's a game yada yada but we're really talking RP.
The game allows crazy things and it's fine, really. I'm not going to complain because you make a druid-monk-necromancer-rogue.
If it's not RP, why bother? Just try to make a powerful character and one that you like playing with that. And I know you can get tired from you daily life so by all means, relax however you feel like.
The OP I wrote was because I wanted to get the most powerful build that was possible in RDD without getting a character leveling like 18-12-5-3-2 because that doesn't stick with the world to my taste.
Also, I wrote the post in 2018 if you look at the dates, the post died and was closed.
Unfortunately, someone did cast raise dead on this post. It's true, if a post already exist, do not create a new one but if the post is too old, create a new one and allow the dead post to rest in peace.
But here we are, again, and the post can be from 2018 but my opinion still didn't change.
Still kinda having fun to see what people think and debate about the subject.
I'm not mad and I'm not a D&D nazi either, people do what they like. But if I play on RP servers, I just want something that makes sense and is cohesive with the universe and unless some incredible event happens, no, you should not become stronger than characters like Drizzt (who trained for years and years) and kill dragons all by yourself without much of a sweat just by adventuring in the world and leveling over the course of a few nights.
I agree that taking a single level of Bard or two is basically cheating.
Sorc 1/warrior class/RDD is more believable, honestly. You didn't train to be a sorc, you were born one. And you channeled that lineage in a different way than spellcasting since you were already a warrior.