mage vs fighter . who is stronger and why ?

[JOHNNY]

just wonder

[wendigo211]

As a general rule Mage is stronger (particularly in PnP). But it depends on a lot of things:

• The availability of magic items. Fighters live and die by their gear, for Wizards and Sorcerers it's a bit different since they can largely buff themselves (mage armor, shield, shadow shield, etc.). As magic items get better, Fighters get better.
  
• Rest restrictions. Mages need to rest to replenish their spells. As long as Fighters have HP (potions/healing kits) they can keep going.
  
• The level range. From levels 8-20 or so, there's no doubt that Mages are stronger than Fighters and keep getting stronger. Below that level range Mages have to rest a lot to replenish their spells and they don't have access to the spells that really mess up an opponent. The Fighter's consistent damage output and plethora of feats, makes them solid at low levels. In epic levels, Mages get wrecked by save progression. They stop getting new spells at level 20 and, while they can now get great INT/CHA feats and epic spell foci, all saves are increasing by +1 every 2 levels and that's not counting the save bonus from spellcraft and items. No matter how you build your Mage, odds are they had a better chance of killing a level 20 enemy at level 20 with a Wail of the Banshee, than they do of killing a level 40 enemy at level 40 with a Wail of the Banshee. Fighters, on the other hand, now get access to Devastating Critical and its high DC. Their strength scores also increase to the point that they can start saving reliably against Bigby's Forceful hand. Their AB progression does slow, but they tend to fair better than Mages with epic level progression.
  
• Feats/Spells that are banned/restricted or altered. Obviously this can skew things in the direction of either Fighter or Mages.
  
• The resistances and immunities of what they are fighting. Critical hit immunity and DR hurt Fighters. While spell immunity, energy resistance and spell resistance hurt Mages.

[fmalfeas]

The rule with mages at epic levels (learned brutally in a PnP epic level game) is that you switch to no-save spells, even if they are touch attacks or rays that might miss and be wasted. If there is a save, it can't be a save that causes no effect, it has to be a save for alternate effect or partial. Or you go into epic spellcasting and engage the law of probability, like making a spell that does Prismatic Sphere like a fireball over a large area, forcing everything to make 7 high DC saves, with 3 of them being 'or die' effectively, and the rest all just being crippling or painful, so that at least /one/ enemy is getting hosed by the spell.

Probably the most powerful stunt you can pull as an epic mage is a heavily metamagic'd Polar Ray. We're talking Empowered, Maximized, and whatever else you can wedge into 'Epic Spell Capacity' slots. And then cast Quickened True Strike before the polar ray, so you don't miss, since even the touch AC on epic enemies tends to be high.

[wendigo211]

Originally posted by fmalfeas:

The rule with mages at epic levels (learned brutally in a PnP epic level game) is that you switch to no-save spells, even if they are touch attacks or rays that might miss and be wasted. If there is a save, it can't be a save that causes no effect, it has to be a save for alternate effect or partial. Or you go into epic spellcasting and engage the law of probability, like making a spell that does Prismatic Sphere like a fireball over a large area, forcing everything to make 7 high DC saves, with 3 of them being 'or die' effectively, and the rest all just being crippling or painful, so that at least /one/ enemy is getting hosed by the spell.

Probably the most powerful stunt you can pull as an epic mage is a heavily metamagic'd Polar Ray. We're talking Empowered, Maximized, and whatever else you can wedge into 'Epic Spell Capacity' slots. And then cast Quickened True Strike before the polar ray, so you don't miss, since even the touch AC on epic enemies tends to be high.

Unfortunately, a lot of that isn't an option in NWN, since there are very few touch spells (and all of the touch spells that do exist are melee). NWN2 does remedy that by adding the orb spells and polar ray. Of course there's nothing stopping someone from adding touch spells to NWN, but it's not something you can count on by default.

In NWN, you're basically down to Isaac's Greater/Lesser Missile Storm and Interposing Hand. There's also Forceful Hand since a medium character needs a 38 strength to have a 50% chance to succeed against the grapple check. Even Ray of Enfeeblement has a save, so no reducing a target's strength before hitting them with a Forceful Hand. Although, the Hand spells aren't implemented as creatures, and there's one save offered against them, so if you fail you're going down for a long time. It does feel cheap to keep spamming the same three or four spells all time.

That said the hit-me mage does seem to be an option again. IIRC, they had at one point changed the damage shield spells so that the mage had to take at least a point of damage before they triggered, but that does not seem to be the case in the EE. So you can cast Epic Warding on yourself, buff up with Death Armor, Elemental Shield and Mestil's Acid Sheath and wait for enemies to attack you (or force them to make AoOs). All the damage from their attacks gets absorbed by Epic Warding and they take all the damage from the three shield spells.

[Selphea]

In general, geared Fighter usually wins in single target DPS. That depends on many things of course but most PWs and modules work like that.

Mage wins just about everything else including defenses, AoE, utility/support and consistency/versatility. If one way of killing things doesn't work they have a ton of fallbacks.

Then again with a lv40 cap you could do something like a Wizard 17 Melee 23 Time Stop + Dev Crit build and get the best of both worlds...

[jonnin]

what level is a big thing too. A level 1 fighter is insanely powerful vs a mage. The mage casts his 1 sleep and wipes out one group of non zombies, sure. But the fighter is harder to hit, has more hit points, and does not need to sleep every time he kills 1-2 guys.

then there is the level 40 mage who can summon nasty horrible things to hide behind while he blows up group after group. Even a magic missile will outright kill a lot of stuff at that point. The figher can whop a group sort of with whirlwind attacks, but its nothing like level 40 mage bombs. The fighter is probably a WM, but even so the lack of crits vs high end enemy negates a lot of that, may as well be a fighter. The mage feels much stronger, once you add in the defense spells and summons and all...

to put it another way, try hardcore d&d rules and take your best fighter and your best mage (started at level 1 in the intro) through the OC and do the docks district. Tell me which one struggled and which one walked thru it. No henchman for this test.

[Lady Crimson (RIP)]

Level is also a factor.. wizard shines at level 9+

Fighter shines at 4 or 6, and similarily warrior classes shine anywhere prior to 9.

So, really each class has a point and a different place of power. Especially when working as a group.

Other factors such as server magic item limits can impact classes. Lower magic servers favor casters.. but they also tend to be lower level which favors warrior classes.

[Shia Luck]

Originally posted by fmalfeas:

The rule with mages at epic levels (learned brutally in a PnP epic level game) is that you switch to no-save spells, even if they are touch attacks or rays that might miss and be wasted. If there is a save, it can't be a save that causes no effect, it has to be a save for alternate effect or partial. Or you go into epic spellcasting and engage the law of probability, like making a spell that does Prismatic Sphere like a fireball over a large area, forcing everything to make 7 high DC saves, with 3 of them being 'or die' effectively, and the rest all just being crippling or painful, so that at least /one/ enemy is getting hosed by the spell.

Probably the most powerful stunt you can pull as an epic mage is a heavily metamagic'd Polar Ray. We're talking Empowered, Maximized, and whatever else you can wedge into 'Epic Spell Capacity' slots. And then cast Quickened True Strike before the polar ray, so you don't miss, since even the touch AC on epic enemies tends to be high.

Have you ever played NWN?


There's truth in talking about who shines at what level, but THE major factor is the magic level. A fighter is (theoretically) pathetic once mages and clerics get disabling spells. One hold person and it is Meet Your Maker time.

So fighters et al get access to items with immunities to spell effects. That effectively makes playing a illusion or enchantment focused mage pointless because immunity to mind effects is always given first. The only immunity that isn't commonly used is immunity to evocation spells and they stop increasing in power at lvl20, while the fighter keeps racking up those hit points.

DnD is a party game. There's always a chance for one member of the party to save the quest. NWN, played as a single player game means fighter types are useless beyond the first few levels without MP magical support or a world with immunities on items.

So, the answer is , it depends where/what you play, no?

Have fun :)

[Selphea]

At Level 1, Wizard is a 3-man army with a Hell Hound, a Badger and a crossbow. How is that weaker? 🤣

[antirelic]

Shia Luck has it right. Its situational, and gear makes a huge difference. Low magic world, mages will have a pretty significant advantage over level 18. Especially considering mages can make potions scrolls, and wands that can extend their offensive capabilities long after their memorized spells have been spent. Yet, a smart fighter can simply duck the mage until his more powerful defensive spells wear off and then close in for the kill. Potions of heal are affordable for high level fighters meaning that they can outlast pretty much everything offensive a mage can cast (provided the fighter can switch from melee to ranged). Tons of fun either way!

[fmalfeas]

I should note that potions of Heal /should/ be absurdly rare and expensive, as nobody but a high level Master Alchemist can make them. Everyone else is limited to putting level 3 spells in potions.

[Bishop]

It also heavily depends on the amount of resting that particular module/world allows. In original nwn campaigns this is pretty much unrestricted, so mages can just rest anywhere anytime when there's no enemies around. If some module restricts resting to only be allowed in inns or specific locations or make mobs spawn during resting hours with high probability things may be vastly different.

[fmalfeas]

Originally posted by Bishop:

It also heavily depends on the amount of resting that particular module/world allows. In original nwn campaigns this is pretty much unrestricted, so mages can just rest anywhere anytime when there's no enemies around. If some module restricts resting to only be allowed in inns or specific locations or make mobs spawn during resting hours with high probability things may be vastly different.

Very true in tabletop as well. So long as a fighter has HP left, he can keep killing at full effect.

Caster runs out of juice, and they become virtually worthless, except Cleric, who becomes a weak fighter.

[jonnin]

Originally posted by Selphea:

At Level 1, Wizard is a 3-man army with a Hell Hound, a Badger and a crossbow. How is that weaker? 🤣

nwn xp penalty per ally for one. If the familiar dies, you take a hit, which is significant at level 1. You probably are terrible with the crossbow, lacking any feats to shoot it faster and lacking BAB to hit consistently. Add in opportunity attacks vs ranged if something targets YOU.

Its a good setup, but it has the same issues all early caster builds have. If things go wrong, they will go terribly wrong. The fighter experience is, if nothing else, consistent and predictable.

[Internet Cafe]

If you've ever played a wizard and had a fighter repeatedly knock you down on the floor you will wonder if it can be measured. It's really all relative to the game.

[Selphea]

Originally posted by jonnin:

nwn xp penalty per ally for one. If the familiar dies, you take a hit, which is significant at level 1. You probably are terrible with the crossbow, lacking any feats to shoot it faster and lacking BAB to hit consistently. Add in opportunity attacks vs ranged if something targets YOU.

Its a good setup, but it has the same issues all early caster builds have. If things go wrong, they will go terribly wrong. The fighter experience is, if nothing else, consistent and predictable.

XP penalty is usually an implicit admission that something is stronger, like multiclass penalty and ECL races.

At level 1 the difference is like, 2 to 3AB and there's no extra attack feats. If you can't hit consistently, chances are neither will the Fighter and it'll be unplayable for Dex Rogues and Monks. It's level 1, even the Fighter won't have the bulk of their BAB or abilities. The AB creep isn't really felt until maybe level 6 or so, by which point the mage has more options.

If the familiar dies or you get hit, usually it's a mistake on the part of the player considering the free familiar heals. A level 1 caster can quite convincingly go into Stealth Mode too so that the badger always goes first, and exploit the Follow command to provoke AoOs that force enemies to look the other way.

So imo any situation at level 1 where something can plow through the combined 30-40 HP of a mage's party with a 21AC Badger tank would also kill a 14 HP Fighter who can only match that AC if they can afford full plate and a tower shield at level 1.

As for repeated knockdowns, the game has a "getting up" state of a few split seconds where you can time a spell cast which, if hasted or quickened, will skip the casting animation and go off before the next knockdown. The mage also gets a check to get out each turn, which if they're a Sorc/Paladin who skill dumped at the last level they'll have a chance to get out. It's not airtight and it's a very PvP-specific situation that implies no Time Stop/Gsanc/Invis on the caster to prevent that in the first place. Something like a spell out of GSanc followed by Time Stop and 3 more spells can be done at range and don't allow a check at all so it's much dirtier imo.

Mages need more micromanagement and more knowledge of the game's mechanics and sometimes, bugs and engine quirks, but they're consistently stronger under default rules. A setting will need very extensive nerfs to summon duration and rest restrictions early on, then more nerfs to other spells like the damage shields and Epic Warding, and if PvP, even more nerfs to control and stealth spells like Bigbys, True Seeing, Time Stop and GSanc to balance it out. PvP servers like Bastions of War have long lists of spell changes in the name of fairness for instance, and even then most of the melee characters aren't your usual Fighter type but have some cheese class like Monk mixed in.