NWN and the D&D Rulesets - How Can We Enhance NWN Even More?

[Artificial]

Beamdog has been talking about making a lot more of the source for NWN soft-coded so modders can add to or even implement a totally new D&D ruleset if they so choose. This is actually a very exciting possibility although the work it entails is equally massive to match. Which brings to mind two important questions.

So, if we really were to do this and change out/improve the core of the game, which ruleset would give us the most functionality and replayability over the somewhat simplified 3.0e ruleset that NWN uses and how much of this new desired ruleset is viable for translation into the game?

After analyzing all the different rulesets, it is my firm opinion that the best D&D ruleset that would translate well into a game, and by extension, into NWN would be D&D 3.5e/Pathfinder. 5e seems optimized a lot for pen and paper and for giving the DM more say generally in how encounters play out. 5e is built for streamlining combat checks and for actual roleplaying. Something that was definitely needed in my opinion for the pen and paper experience.

3.5e/Pathfinder however is built around more minute rules and build options and requires more math. This is actually perfect because obviously the computer cannot adapt and improvise as a human DM can. It ALWAYS needs to be told what to do. So in this regard, a ruleset like 3.5e/Pathfinder would be the best due to its strictness, complexity, and many build options it allows. The increased amounts of figuring required obviously isn't a problem because the computer will be doing all of it and the comparitive strictness of the ruleset gives the computer direction in how certain situations should be handled.

But what do you guys think? Does 5e still offer some benefits over 3.5e/Pathfinder? Or perhaps maybe we should stick to 3.0e even and build off of it?

[jimbobslimbob]

3.5 was D&D at its greatest in my opinion, so would love to see NWN adjusted to include the adaptions it made from 3 (like NWN 2 did). In all honesty though, any other ruleset is just never going to happen in this game. Best off starting with 5 in NWN 3 (we can wish).

[Artificial]

Originally posted by jimbobslimbob:

Best off starting with 5 in NWN 3 (we can wish).

Again though, 5e is built more for pen and paper. I don't think it would translate nearly as well to a PC game compared to 3.5e/Pathfinder.

[jimbobslimbob]

Originally posted by Artificial:

Originally posted by jimbobslimbob:

Best off starting with 5 in NWN 3 (we can wish).

Again though, 5e is built more for pen and paper. I don't think it would translate nearly as well to a PC game compared to 3.5e/Pathfinder.

I don't see why it wouldn't suit a PC game at all, I play 5e PnP and think it would work really well if done properly (discarding the mess that was Sword Coast Legends). Infact, due to the simplified rules I think it could introduce a lot of new players to D&D if done correctly.

[Artificial]

Originally posted by jimbobslimbob:

I don't see why it wouldn't suit a PC game at all, I play 5e PnP and think it would work really well if done properly (discarding the mess that was Sword Coast Legends). Infact, due to the simplified rules I think it could introduce a lot of new players to D&D if done correctly.

It's less optimal than 3.5e/Pathfinder because 5e relies more on the DM and the players' imaginations. For a computer game's core, this is bad because, as said above, computers can only do whatever they're told. They can't make up situations unless given specific parameters to and they can't adapt to whatever player's decide to do unless those reactions are explicitly written in.

[jimbobslimbob]

Originally posted by Artificial:

Originally posted by jimbobslimbob:

I don't see why it wouldn't suit a PC game at all, I play 5e PnP and think it would work really well if done properly (discarding the mess that was Sword Coast Legends). Infact, due to the simplified rules I think it could introduce a lot of new players to D&D if done correctly.

It's less optimal than 3.5e/Pathfinder because 5e relies more on the DM and the players' imaginations. For a computer game's core, this is bad because, as said above, computers can only do whatever they're told. They can't make up situations unless given specific parameters to and they can't adapt to whatever player's decide to do unless those reactions are explicitly written in.

I honestly do not see your point there, but whatever floats your boat. I will have to simply agree to disagree.

[Artificial]

Originally posted by jimbobslimbob:

Originally posted by Artificial:

It's less optimal than 3.5e/Pathfinder because 5e relies more on the DM and the players' imaginations. For a computer game's core, this is bad because, as said above, computers can only do whatever they're told. They can't make up situations unless given specific parameters to and they can't adapt to whatever player's decide to do unless those reactions are explicitly written in.

I honestly do not see your point there, but whatever floats your boat. I will have to simply agree to disagree.

In 5e, things are purposefully written to be vague sometimes so as to give the DM more control while still making a core ruleset that balances certain things together. And in any case, even if we disregard this completely, 3.5e/Pathfinder simply has more build options and attack options than 5e that are ready to go.

[jimbobslimbob]

Originally posted by Artificial:

Originally posted by jimbobslimbob:

I honestly do not see your point there, but whatever floats your boat. I will have to simply agree to disagree.

In 5e, things are purposefully written to be vague sometimes so as to give the DM more control while still making a core ruleset that balances certain things together. And in any case, even if we disregard this completely, 3.5e/Pathfinder simply has more build options and attack options than 5e that are ready to go.

I definitely do not debate the build options point - and is one of the reasons why I love 3.5. As to the other point, regarding "vague" rules, I don't agree with that at all.

[Tonden Ockay]

5e

- Slower Leveling
- Armor Caped
- Lower BAB - Keeps players from mowing through lower level mobs.
- All classes don't get multiple attacks
- SavesThrows - that allow players to still fail at higher level
- Advantage and Disadvantage - Going away from really high Advantages so high level
characters can still be challenged
- Far less feats
- Spells - the power of spells tweaked / weakened a little.

Changes like these help to keep players from blowing through content. Which allows for content that DM's/Creators create to be used longer, without have to keep buffing up encounters as much and/or pumping out new content to try and keep the game challenging for players. So I see all kinds of upsides to using 5e with computer games.

These are just some of the reasons I really hope someone makes some haks and scripts to run NWN1 like 5e.

If anyone is working or knows of someone who is working on creating 5e for NWN1 could you please point me to them.

Thanks for your time.

[wendigo211]

Don't get me wrong, I love NWN, but this engine is really showing its age and limitations. I'd much rather see Beamdog working to make a new NWN game with a 64 bit engine and multi-threading than open up some of the hard coded stuff in this game. Sure there's some stuff they can do to improve the game, but the glory days of modding are over for it.

If you do want to write a new ruleset, it's possible in NWN2. You couldn't change the old rules, but you could write your own rules and tell the game to use those instead of the hard-coded ones. IIRC this is what the turn-based mod for that game did. I don't think you can do same with NWN since it doesn't have many of the functions or UI modification options that NWN2 does.

I think it's also possible with DOS2's toolset although I haven't played around with that much.

[Lady MacBeth]

Originally posted by wendigo211:

Don't get me wrong, I love NWN, but this engine is really showing its age and limitations. I'd much rather see Beamdog working to make a new NWN game with a 64 bit engine and multi-threading than open up some of the hard coded stuff in this game. Sure there's some stuff they can do to improve the game, but the glory days of modding are over for it.

If you do want to write a new ruleset, it's possible in NWN2. You couldn't change the old rules, but you could write your own rules and tell the game to use those instead of the hard-coded ones. IIRC this is what the turn-based mod for that game did. I don't think you can do same with NWN since it doesn't have many of the functions or UI modification options that NWN2 does.

I think it's also possible with DOS2's toolset although I haven't played around with that much.

Don't forget this is the same engine that the first witcher is built in. Technically its no where near its limits if they wanted to improve it.

[wendigo211]

Originally posted by Ming:

Don't forget this is the same engine that the first witcher is built in. Technically its no where near its limits if they wanted to improve it.

Was the Witcher 1 built in this engine or Jade Empire's engine? Anyway, I believe they ended up rewriting most of it. I'm not saything there isn't room for improvement, but I don't see Beamdog giving us Witcher (or NWN2) improvements.

[Artificial]

NWN2 for me was the definition of death by a thousand cuts. There's so many little things about it that have been removed or crapified somehow. It would need a big overhaul done to it on the technical/features side before I look at it again.

Originally posted by Tonden Ockay:

5e

- Slower Leveling
- Armor Caped
- Lower BAB - Keeps players from mowing through lower level mobs.
- All classes don't get multiple attacks
- SavesThrows - that allow players to still fail at higher level
- Advantage and Disadvantage - Going away from really high Advantages so high level
characters can still be challenged
- Far less feats
- Spells - the power of spells tweaked / weakened a little.

Changes like these help to keep players from blowing through content. Which allows for content that DM's/Creators create to be used longer, without have to keep buffing up encounters as much and/or pumping out new content to try and keep the game challenging for players. So I see all kinds of upsides to using 5e with computer games.

These are just some of the reasons I really hope someone makes some haks and scripts to run NWN1 like 5e.

If anyone is working or knows of someone who is working on creating 5e for NWN1 could you please point me to them.

Thanks for your time.

5e is also purposefully more vague to account for Rule 0 whereas 3.5/Pathfinder esque rules tend to spell everything out, which is incredibly optimal if you're trying to write that into a PC game. A computer can't handle vagueness. It's gonna follow exactly what the code says and no more.

Also, I'm not asking for a straight port of 3.5e, but an evolution of it. Something even more complex with perhaps some things tweaked.

[wendigo211]

Originally posted by Artificial:

NWN2 for me was the definition of death by a thousand cuts. There's so many little things about it that have been removed or crapified somehow. It would need a big overhaul done to it on the technical/features side before I look at it again.

This is an observation I just don't get. I modded in both NWN and NWN2. I'll admit that NWN2 was rough on release, and that didn't really didn't improve until a couple of patches after MotB, but the toolset was so much more powerful it's like comparing clay (NWN2) to lego (NWN).

[Artificial]

Originally posted by wendigo211:

Originally posted by Artificial:

NWN2 for me was the definition of death by a thousand cuts. There's so many little things about it that have been removed or crapified somehow. It would need a big overhaul done to it on the technical/features side before I look at it again.

This is an observation I just don't get. I modded in both NWN and NWN2. I'll admit that NWN2 was rough on release, and that didn't really didn't improve until a couple of patches after MotB, but the toolset was so much more powerful it's like comparing clay (NWN2) to lego (NWN).

The toolset may have been more powerful, but I'm not really referring to that. I'm talking about the game itself. The experience kept getting undermined with alllll these little problems. And it's a shame because I truly hoped it would take NWN's place.

Instead, if anything, that honor goes to D:OS2.