People are mad?

[Hiecchi]

Is it that hard to understand?
Selling the game uncensored is not possible on Steam. Steam banned so many titles, even some which only were All Age.
They had no other choice to "edit" the content.

They would also love to provide the patch on Steam, but like already happenend with other titles, steam doesnt allow that always and Jast tried that already many times....

So you have the choice between

Not buying the title at all on Steam and only on Jasts Store (which was already the case for many years, why you never bought the title?) or buying the title on steam with a patch from their site.
Of course you can say "they should sell the game at the same price and make the patch free", but this would only make people angry which dont had any interest in that content and SADLY some people are okay with that (look at all the gaming media sites, which wrote reviews about that and their "readers" said they want to read the title without that content, even if its dumb)
So in that case, they made the game cheaper on steam, otherwise people would call that also as a scam.

This was literally the best solution, its also the case for many other VN-Publisher (this is nothing new with non-free patches....) and the easiest way.
The patch is simple and everyone can install it without any problems (its a auto-installer...)

Also....we all know that someone will "upload" the patch, so if you are that mad about it, wait for that (still i hope that people will support the decision).

Still supporting a title which gaves you a choice to PATCH it, is better than a title without a Patch or the choice to add some scenes back and obviously better than not having the choice to buy the game on the store you want.

If you dont want to support this "method", you still have the option to buy the game on jast store (its not region-blocked) and if you want that on Steam, than complain that steam doesnt allow it and the Publisher cant do a ♥♥♥♥ against it.
They already tried to release other titles on steam and steam banned them all, because they were not edited for their release like they banned their patches.
At least you have the option for everything, especially for people who dont like to have their games on different stores.

Sorry for the textwall, but as someone who is always talking against REAL censored titles on Steam without the option to patch them or even the choice to buy them elsewhere, because the Publisher is too lazy to provide patch or release the FULL game somewhere else, most of this complains are over the top.

[Tracido]

Originally posted by Kotori Matsudo:

Originally posted by Tracido:

"2012 Missouri case
In October 2012, after being reported by his wife, a 36-year-old man named Christian Bee in Monett, Missouri entered a plea bargain to "possession of cartoons depicting child pornography", with the U.S. attorney's office for the Western District of Missouri recommending a 3-year prison sentence without parole. The office in conjunction with the Southwest Missouri Cyber Crimes Task Force argued that the "Incest Comics" on Bee's computer "clearly lack any literary, artistic, political or scientific value". Christian Bee was originally indicted for possession of actual child pornography, but that charge was dropped as part of a plea deal, and was instead charged with possession of the "Incest Comics".[98][99][100][101]"

Just snipping this here and bolding the important part. The only reason he was taken to court and charged with anything at all is BECAUSE of the real CP that flagged him. There was a similar case of a person who acquired lolicon manga and such who was arrested and charged because he was a registered sex offender who originally was charged with possession of real CP.

Also keyword to note: Pornography. Even with the couple sexual scenes in Song of Saya, which can be argued to be an important part of the story and the progression of the two characters mindsets (Saya especially), that wouldn't count as pornography.

Pornography by definition: printed or visual material containing the explicit description or display of sexual organs or activity, intended to stimulate erotic rather than aesthetic or emotional feelings

It can be argued that both scenes were intended to stimulate emotional feelings, and wasn't put into place as 'fapping' material.


But gotta love the fact that the two countries that are most strict about lolicon content also are the two countries with some of the highest rape crimes in general, and highest rape and abuse crimes towards minors. Yet countries more accepting of said lolicon material have seen such statistics towards minors dropped by half. Hmm... :minasmile:

If you looked at the case, it made very clear that wasn't even a part of the case because of a plea deal...

However, since you didn't even read this part.. "The upshot is that Congress so far has managed to criminalize possession of virtual child porn"

Arguing the facts doesn't change them, take it to court. (Hint if missed: I'm serious, if you think this game is the right kind of artwork, get together and challenge it.)

(Psst, why do you think I fought for games like Hatred, so you all could get your AO games even on here? It was because we had won freedom in gaming in my nation for violence in court ALREADY, 'Hatred' is violence based, period.)

Do it with a loli game, I dare you all to try.

Furthermore, why you expect Steam/Valve to do it is beyond me, they follow u.s. law first and foremost, none other.

[Urek]

if they cant provide an experience better or equal to the fan translation don't give them your money

[Kotori Matsudo]

Originally posted by Tracido:

Originally posted by Kotori Matsudo:

Just snipping this here and bolding the important part. The only reason he was taken to court and charged with anything at all is BECAUSE of the real CP that flagged him. There was a similar case of a person who acquired lolicon manga and such who was arrested and charged because he was a registered sex offender who originally was charged with possession of real CP.

Also keyword to note: Pornography. Even with the couple sexual scenes in Song of Saya, which can be argued to be an important part of the story and the progression of the two characters mindsets (Saya especially), that wouldn't count as pornography.

Pornography by definition: printed or visual material containing the explicit description or display of sexual organs or activity, intended to stimulate erotic rather than aesthetic or emotional feelings

It can be argued that both scenes were intended to stimulate emotional feelings, and wasn't put into place as 'fapping' material.


But gotta love the fact that the two countries that are most strict about lolicon content also are the two countries with some of the highest rape crimes in general, and highest rape and abuse crimes towards minors. Yet countries more accepting of said lolicon material have seen such statistics towards minors dropped by half. Hmm...

If you looked at the case, it made very clear that wasn't even a part of the case because of a plea deal...

However, since you didn't even read this part.. "The upshot is that Congress so far has managed to criminalize possession of virtual child porn"

Arguing the facts doesn't change them, take it to court. (Hint if missed: I'm serious, if you think this game is the right kind of artwork, get together and challenge it.)

(Psst, why do you think I fought for games like Hatred, so you all could get your AO games even on here? It was because we had won freedom in gaming in my nation for violence in court ALREADY, 'Hatred' is violence based, period.)

Do it with a loli game, I dare you all to try.

Furthermore, why you expect Steam/Valve to do it is beyond me, they follow u.s. law first and foremost, none other.

Looked and read just fine, and what you aren't understanding is that my point the guy was flagged by real CP to begin with. If he never had that in the first place I gurantee you he would have never gone to court and never been put in jail. Just because they 'dismiss' it in a plea deal likely just means someone had an agenda, but they couldn't have even reached that point if real CP wasn't in his possession to begin with.

If that wasn't the case then there will be a lot, a LOT, of people who have been criminally charged already by now given how many years ago these cases have been, and people arrested for having only lolicon content in their possess and not having any CP at all or never having been previously found guilty for possession or distribution of.

Find me just 1 case at all of ANYONE being arrested in the states for having lolicon content of some form and there not being even a single mention anywhere of "Oh yeah well he also had actual CP.." or "He violated his parole that originally was from possession of CP.." blah blah blah.

<.< You can't. But the moment you do and moment it happens, probably going to see crimes skyrocket and that is something pretty scary to think about. Ah well the world is fixing to end anyways.. humans are good about destroying themselves.

[Tracido]

Originally posted by Kotori Matsudo:

Originally posted by Tracido:

If you looked at the case, it made very clear that wasn't even a part of the case because of a plea deal...

However, since you didn't even read this part.. "The upshot is that Congress so far has managed to criminalize possession of virtual child porn"

Arguing the facts doesn't change them, take it to court. (Hint if missed: I'm serious, if you think this game is the right kind of artwork, get together and challenge it.)

(Psst, why do you think I fought for games like Hatred, so you all could get your AO games even on here? It was because we had won freedom in gaming in my nation for violence in court ALREADY, 'Hatred' is violence based, period.)

Do it with a loli game, I dare you all to try.

Furthermore, why you expect Steam/Valve to do it is beyond me, they follow u.s. law first and foremost, none other.

Looked and read just fine, and what you aren't understanding is that my point the guy was flagged by real CP to begin with. If he never had that in the first place I gurantee you he would have never gone to court and never been put in jail. Just because they 'dismiss' it in a plea deal likely just means someone had an agenda, but they couldn't have even reached that point if real CP wasn't in his possession to begin with.

If that wasn't the case then there will be a lot, a LOT, of people who have been criminally charged already by now given how many years ago these cases have been, and people arrested for having only lolicon content in their possess and not having any CP at all or never having been previously found guilty for possession or distribution of.

Find me just 1 case at all of ANYONE being arrested in the states for having lolicon content of some form and there not being even a single mention anywhere of "Oh yeah well he also had actual CP.." or "He violated his parole that originally was from possession of CP.." blah blah blah.

<.< You can't. But the moment you do and moment it happens, probably going to see crimes skyrocket and that is something pretty scary to think about. Ah well the world is fixing to end anyways.. humans are good about destroying themselves. :Ageha:

I'm not a lawyer, I don't work in criminal defense, and I don't ever CARE to give a ♥♥♥♥ about it. What many all seem to refuse to care about, ESPECIALLY if you aren't in the u.s.a. is what happens to Valve/Steam if they do get into court.

If there were ANY SJW's period, Steam would be either in court right now or banning all your games, end of discussion.

https://www.freespeechcoalition.com/blog/2016/11/18/to-the-adult-industry-under-a-trump-administration/

"THE APPOINTMENTS
While many in the industry have argued that Trump — a man whose wife posed for nude photos and who appeared in a softcore film himself — only did it to rally the base during the election, his presidential appointment show otherwise.

Domestic policy for the Trump transition team is being led by Ken Blackwell, of the Family Research Council (FRC). The FRC believes that pornography is a “major threat to marriage, family, children and individual happiness.” It believes porn is addictive, causes rape and sexual perversion, and has fought for bans on access to pornography, similar to what exists now for child pornography.
Rudy Giuliani, a vice-chair of the transition team, and a likely figure in the administration led the massive crackdown against adult entertainment in New York’s Times Square, nearly eliminating adult retail outlets, movie theaters, and dance clubs from the city.
Edwin Meese, the former Attorney General who pushed for an led the Reagan’s crackdown on pornography, is now part of Trump’s transition team.
Jeff Sessions, the likely Attorney General in the Trump Administration, blamed the military’s sexual assault problem on the availability of pornography on military bases. While on the Senate Judiciary Committee, Sessions sponsored a resolution calling for the vigorous enforcement of federal obscenity laws, citing the Meese Commission as its basis. The resolution passed."

Keep pissing them off, though, please, I'll get popcorn for the right wingers to remove it ALL, as Steam/Valve is a u.s. company first and foremost.

Now, philosophize all you want about it, in drawings it's just art, and this shouldn't even BE a discussion, but I live where it IS, and Valve/Steam runs a BUSINESS here.

[DarkChaplain]

tl;dr the legal situation is murky at best and nobody wants to let it get to a stage where actual lawmakers step in and potentially make blanket bans of certain types of media over outrage movements; laws made by senile old men out of touch with the medium we all love.

As a result, companies are careful as they can be, and even then they get caught in the crossfire from both sides of any given conflict. MangaGamer, for example, decided to sell certain visual novels and had - not for the first time - trouble with their payment processor ditching them, leaving their store effectively nonfunctional for over a month now. No store wants this ♥♥♥♥ to happen.

Whoever you want to pin the blame on, it really doesn't matter right now. Until a proper precedent in an US court is made, the exact legal situation won't be any clearer to any of us, including the store owners. But since there are so many negative connotations to the subject matter, even on the Steam forums (just check Saya no Uta's forum for all the cries of readers being pedophiles, made by people who know nothing about the VN), that nobody wants to take the risk of actually pushing through with it on a large scale.

Smaller stores can shoulder the risks more easily than something like Steam, Amazon, Walmart or Apple. Usually, stores like MangaGamer are so niche, that nobody in the wider media pays attention to them, while still attracting a hardcore audience of people who know their medium. But the moment Valve lets out a wet fart or some tragedy-exploiting asset flip appears on the store, the media won't shut up about it for months, with Youtubers like, say, Jim Sterling riding on all the bad things that ever happened in Steam's mostly-open marketplace for years to come.

Valve's level of exposure puts them at much greater risk, and their economic situation makes them a prime target for lawsuits in many countries. Distancing themselves from the risk while ignoring what devs/publishers put out in terms of patches - so long as the more controversial stuff is offered outside of the Steam ecosystem - is the best compromise they can make right now. It's not ideal, but it is the safest approach, as much as I hate how certain titles aren't available now (like Rance, Kara no Shoujo 2 and Cartagra, all of which I was looking forward to buying here).

[Tracido]

Originally posted by DarkChaplain:

tl;dr the legal situation is murky at best and nobody wants to let it get to a stage where actual lawmakers step in and potentially make blanket bans of certain types of media over outrage movements; laws made by senile old men out of touch with the medium we all love.

As a result, companies are careful as they can be, and even then they get caught in the crossfire from both sides of any given conflict. MangaGamer, for example, decided to sell certain visual novels and had - not for the first time - trouble with their payment processor ditching them, leaving their store effectively nonfunctional for over a month now. No store wants this ♥♥♥♥ to happen.

Whoever you want to pin the blame on, it really doesn't matter right now. Until a proper precedent in an US court is made, the exact legal situation won't be any clearer to any of us, including the store owners. But since there are so many negative connotations to the subject matter, even on the Steam forums (just check Saya no Uta's forum for all the cries of readers being pedophiles, made by people who know nothing about the VN), that nobody wants to take the risk of actually pushing through with it on a large scale.

Smaller stores can shoulder the risks more easily than something like Steam, Amazon, Walmart or Apple. Usually, stores like MangaGamer are so niche, that nobody in the wider media pays attention to them, while still attracting a hardcore audience of people who know their medium. But the moment Valve lets out a wet fart or some tragedy-exploiting asset flip appears on the store, the media won't shut up about it for months, with Youtubers like, say, Jim Sterling riding on all the bad things that ever happened in Steam's mostly-open marketplace for years to come.

Valve's level of exposure puts them at much greater risk, and their economic situation makes them a prime target for lawsuits in many countries. Distancing themselves from the risk while ignoring what devs/publishers put out in terms of patches - so long as the more controversial stuff is offered outside of the Steam ecosystem - is the best compromise they can make right now. It's not ideal, but it is the safest approach, as much as I hate how certain titles aren't available now (like Rance, Kara no Shoujo 2 and Cartagra, all of which I was looking forward to buying here).

This, so much this, because if Steam/Valve were truly fighting against your fun times, they'd ban everything that ever had a patch here without a second thought involved in this controversy.

[DarkChaplain]

On top of that, Valve initially allowed developers to post their patches right on their community hubs (see: Huniepop for the most notable/earliest example), but later on changed that policy to "please no official links from devs on the forums/announcements", and now they *might* be able to offer it as proper DLC or not, depending on the particular case, while the rest are still handled mostly off the official record / outside of Valve's area of responsibility (read: the forums).

It's a really confusing situation to be in, but it's for the benefit of the users at the end of the day, compared to how things used to be completely kept off-Steam.

Heck, I remember an erotica card game with lewd, near-realistic artworks of naked people in sexual situations getting booted off of Greenlight (despite popular support) because, at the time, offering adult-only content on Steam was unheard of and a big controversial problem in gaming to begin with. I actually bought that title directly from the devs afterwards as a vote of confidence, and found it rather fun for the various card games it offered. Yes, it had art of people copulating and was written in a visiting-a-mansion-of-rich-vixens sorta way, but the gameplay itself was actually compelling, unlike many of the trash russian "hentai" games nowadays. But it just wasn't allowed at the time, and it took a super weird game like Hatred and the overblown controversy involved to make Valve commit to allow Adult Only games.

It's important to remember that policies like these change over time. Opinions can develop from a to b to c, all the way to z and back. Social tolerance and acceptance of media is rarely explosive, and more generally a winding process.
It took mediocre VNs without explicit sexuality like Sakura Spirit, think of it what you may, to push the boundaries of what visual novels are allowed to do without an overwhelming negative impact. And now we have freakin' Taimanin Asagi coming to Steam (the first official English release, no less!), which is about as extreme a nukige as it gets in the mainstream nukige market, with the shock factor dialed up to 19. I'd not be surprised if the only thing really holding back something like Euphoria to be allowed onto Steam was the school-setting/age of the characters involved, too.

[Tracido]

Originally posted by DarkChaplain:

On top of that, Valve initially allowed developers to post their patches right on their community hubs (see: Huniepop for the most notable/earliest example), but later on changed that policy to "please no official links from devs on the forums/announcements", and now they *might* be able to offer it as proper DLC or not, depending on the particular case, while the rest are still handled mostly off the official record / outside of Valve's area of responsibility (read: the forums).

It's a really confusing situation to be in, but it's for the benefit of the users at the end of the day, compared to how things used to be completely kept off-Steam.

Heck, I remember an erotica card game with lewd, near-realistic artworks of naked people in sexual situations getting booted off of Greenlight (despite popular support) because, at the time, offering adult-only content on Steam was unheard of and a big controversial problem in gaming to begin with. I actually bought that title directly from the devs afterwards as a vote of confidence, and found it rather fun for the various card games it offered. Yes, it had art of people copulating and was written in a visiting-a-mansion-of-rich-vixens sorta way, but the gameplay itself was actually compelling, unlike many of the trash russian "hentai" games nowadays. But it just wasn't allowed at the time, and it took a super weird game like Hatred and the overblown controversy involved to make Valve commit to allow Adult Only games.

It's important to remember that policies like these change over time. Opinions can develop from a to b to c, all the way to z and back. Social tolerance and acceptance of media is rarely explosive, and more generally a winding process.
It took mediocre VNs without explicit sexuality like Sakura Spirit, think of it what you may, to push the boundaries of what visual novels are allowed to do without an overwhelming negative impact. And now we have freakin' Taimanin Asagi coming to Steam (the first official English release, no less!), which is about as extreme a nukige as it gets in the mainstream nukige market, with the shock factor dialed up to 19. I'd not be surprised if the only thing really holding back something like Euphoria to be allowed onto Steam was the school-setting/age of the characters involved, too.

Heck, I remember when the original Witcher had to censor nudity in cards, and a few nude creatures just to get an M rating & even come out here, as in just release at ALL in u.s.a..

[a_[w]]

Step 1: Mark a game as adult
Step 2: Publish adult content

[DarkChaplain]

Originally posted by a_w:

Step 1: Mark a game as adult
Step 2: Publish adult content

That's not how it works, I'm afraid. Marking it adult does not solve the problem of Valve's approval process. Fact of the matter is there's sexual content they'd rather not be sold directly on Steam.

[Tracido]

Originally posted by DarkChaplain:

Originally posted by a_w:

Step 1: Mark a game as adult
Step 2: Publish adult content

That's not how it works, I'm afraid. Marking it adult does not solve the problem of Valve's approval process. Fact of the matter is there's sexual content they'd rather not be sold directly on Steam.

Yep, and even beyond 'grey' area laws, and lawsuits that absolutely may be brought into court because this place is huge and in a puritan nation running under the law; the business itself, decides what sells at their store.

Just as an art museum, displays the art it chooses to display, regardless of meaning..

[Hideo]

I've read the linked reply from the JAST representative and while I somehow can understand the logic behind their decision, I still don't support it at all. Not one bit. If some people are fine with the censored Steam version, that's cool, but I assume most people that are interested in this VN know about Uncut Patches (just like I did) and expect them to be already "paid for" by their initial purchase on Steam. Not only will I not buy it on Steam, I will actively discourage everyone whenever I can from buying it here.

[Mario]

JastUSA shouldn't have charged 5$ for the uncut patch, meanwhile providing a free conversion kit for the earlier release of Saya no Uta.

[Tracido]

Originally posted by Tracido:

Originally posted by Hideo:

I've read the linked reply from the JAST representative and while I somehow can understand the logic behind their decision, I still don't support it at all. Not one bit. If some people are fine with the censored Steam version, that's cool, but I assume most people that are interested in this VN know about Uncut Patches (just like I did) and expect them to be already "paid for" by their initial purchase on Steam. Not only will I not buy it on Steam, I will actively discourage everyone whenever I can from buying it here.

This isn't entirely the publishers fault. Many games coming to Steam are starting to do this. Again, this is clear to me, the majority, see paying for censored content as a deduction, and to provide the full content safely, and give a fuller experience, paying more would allow a publisher to host servers, with updates, et cetera.

It's not all negative reasoning.

Furthermore, when you provide the content this way, anything ever taken to court can be referenced to cases where removing content allows for a full game at all ages.

It's a double win legally and financially.

[Kurikuo]

I am mad over the fact that I had to pay for said patch. Not releasing it uncensored is fully understandable, it is possible but would take a lot longer to get approvement from Valve, or gets declined. Sexual content is allowed on Steam by now but devs and publishers still decide to remove said content, so they have it easier to bring it on Steam, its also beneficial to sell the games to people that dont want any sexual content. But having to pay for a patch that should be included within a game, since it isnt just sex scenes but context and important dialogue in this case, is just total cashgrab. It wasnt expensive but thats just wrong.

It seems like you misunderstand the whole concept why people are mad over it.