Should ALWAYS change class? No spoilers please

[King Joshington]

TL;DR - Do you HAVE to constantly change classes so as not to waste AP gains?

I am really enjoying this game but I've started to come up against my own neurotic tendencies and want some advice.

I'm worried that once a class is maxed out, it's bad to stay in that class ... so I feel compelled to constantly be working towards leveling something ... even if I don't know what that something should be and even if it means I break a combination I like.

For example, from the beginning, I maxed out my Mender and than made her a Gambler. I really enjoy the combination, but now I'm fretting that she's not learning anything new. So I am working on her learning to be a Templar ... but then I have to sacrifice the cool Gambler skills.

It's not the end of the world, but here's my question:
Is it wrong to decide to keep a combination and NOT change classes?

[Meredith K Pseudonym]

No. No matter how many abilities they gain, a character can only have two classes, four passives and one counter. AP spent on useless stuff isn't any different from AP you can't spend.

Are you going to have your Mender use any of those Templar abilities? A lot of it could be used by her but it doesn't matter if it won't.

[King Joshington]

True ... I suppose to that it feels like I'm limiting myself now if I change my mind later and want more versatility. But it just seems for example that a Mender's abilities will ALWAYS be in demand.

Is there another pairing that goes particularly well with Mending? (I don't love mixing in the wizard stuff, probably because "white" and "black" are still divided in my mind)

[6E_Pixelestial]

While it's true that we've tried to design the game to encourage experimentation, that doesn't mean to have to. If you're having fun, then why mess with a good thing? The one thing I would suggest in your case is, once your other characters start maxing out Mender (or whichever your primary class is) from Vicarious AP, then switch your primary class to Gambler so that the Vicarious AP isn't wasted.

In my own case, I hate wasting primary class AP and tend to switch out of a mastered class right away. By the time I've mastered a class, let's say Mender, another character may have enough Vicarious AP in Mender to take the first character's place in that role for a time, while they go and learn other things (in your case, Templar). So that's an option, too.

Another option is to switch Mender for another class that fills a similar role, like the secret class Princess later in the game.

[King Joshington]

Well that sounds more like what I'm going through -- the idea of wasting primary AP. I get that it's a good idea to be changing classes to help others with vicarious AP.

Edit: After reading this response, I'm suddenly unsure of something. What IS vicarious AP?
I think it is this:
If you have a character in battle who is a Knight & at the end of the battle you earn 22 vicarious AP, then all characters gain 22 AP in the Knight class.

Also, I don't think it stacks. For example, if you have 2 characters that are Knights, then you still only earn 22AP and not 44AP.

Am I correct?

[Conan The Librarian]

King Joshington-

Vicarious AP does indeed stack as it’s calculated on an individual hero basis.

For more info on your main question about class changing, I recommend this thread in which someone asked a similar question

https://steamcommunity.com/app/699170/discussions/0/1742231705669454664/

Also, if you’re looking for more info in terms of how AP gains work, I have a section on that in my guide. I do what I can to avoid spoilers.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1488578363

Just a small tidbit: since AP gains are based on your main class, you can utilize mastered classes as a secondary without wasting your main AP gains.

[King Joshington]

Hey that was great reading (the guide) and answered some questions for me. Thanks!
So now I better understand how Vicarious AP works. I was worried before having multiples of the same jobs, but it sounds like that might actually be what I WANT to do if I'm trying to say, grind everyone to lvl4 Knight to unlock more advanced classes.

How many generics do you usually have? I have 5. I figure that should be enough, what with all of the story heroes as well. And you can only ever bring 5-7 on the battlefield.

Is there a reason to take more?

I did understand from the guide that I might want to hire a new recruit later as a scoundrel (for example) to get the "pure" stats if he had leveled up like that and then I can change him to a more speed/evasion/crit class.

[FroBodine]

Originally posted by 6E_Pixelestial:

In my own case, I hate wasting primary class AP and tend to switch out of a mastered class right away. By the time I've mastered a class, let's say Mender, another character may have enough Vicarious AP in Mender to take the first character's place in that role for a time, while they go and learn other things (in your case, Templar). So that's an option, too.

Still a newbie here . . . how do we know when we have mastered a class, please?

[Conan The Librarian]

Glad to hear it helped.

Of course there is no “it has to be this way answer”, but I personally like having around 3-4 generic heroes alongside the various story charcters. Note that this includes the first two you start with (default names Lana & Virgil), so i’d hire one or two more.

Purpose in having a handfull of heroes is both general flexibility and having backup for when someone gets injured. Of course, the further you spread your AP amongst more heroes, the more work it is to “keep people leveled”, but that’s a personal choice on how you wanna play that.

Originally posted by King Joshington:

I did understand from the guide that I might want to hire a new recruit later as a scoundrel (for example) to get the "pure" stats if he had leveled up like that and then I can change him to a more speed/evasion/crit class.

Just FYI:

1. A new recruit will tend to have less overall AP, so maybe this is ok, but maybe it’s not as effective as you might’ve guessed. Not that stats aren’t important, but AP is overall more potent.

2. Also FYI that crit and evasion is NOT a growth stat, these come only from gear, abilities, buffs, and a small passive amount from whichever class you currently have as your main class.

[Conan The Librarian]

Originally posted by FroBodine:

Originally posted by 6E_Pixelestial:

In my own case, I hate wasting primary class AP and tend to switch out of a mastered class right away. By the time I've mastered a class, let's say Mender, another character may have enough Vicarious AP in Mender to take the first character's place in that role for a time, while they go and learn other things (in your case, Templar). So that's an option, too.

Still a newbie here . . . how do we know when we have mastered a class, please?

You know your hero has masteted a class when that hero has learned 100% of that class’ skills. It will show a yellow star in the class change wheel and say MASTERED in place of how much AP you have in that class because you can’t learn anything further in it.

[RavenOfRazgriz]

I don't feel you need to worry about this kind of thing too much. I like to change classes, but I only do so when I know I'm reaching for abilities that character might actually use. Eg, leveling Mender, Gambler, Wizard, Druid, Sorcerer, Plague Doctor, Alchemystic, and maybe Fellblade on the same unit will almost always be useful, as their Passives / Counters / Skillsets inter-combine well and their stat growths (Gambler excepted) are all reasonably compatible.

For other classes that aren't compatible in that way, it's better to just change that unit to that class when that unit won't be participating in battle. That way, the 50% AP it gains while benched + Vicarious Learning get it through unlocking those classes and reaching for what abilities seem useful, etc. Also, for units that are on the same tree (eg, if your party has three mages), if you keep their primary jobs different each mission, that'll also help leveling through the different trees at a fast clip.

Once you've hit that point, though - I don't think AP is as big of a deal. I go through most encounters on the back-half of the game using a party of nothing but mastered classes and don't miss the AP because I don't feel I need anything else on those units. There's only really a few Counters / Passives that really stick out as being really worth the effort of cross-tree'ing for, and for those abilities, the above method is usually enough to reach them. And, remember, even a Mastered unit will give Vicarious Learning to its allies. So if you have a Mastered Fellblade / Duelist (eg), using them as Fellblade and Duelist will still give AP to allow other units to eventually reach Evade Magic or Evade Skill. Etc. As long as you have some cursory awareness of what you actually need for that unit, it's really not a big deal, personally.

[King Joshington]

Ok, a new question (because you guys have been good at avoiding spoilers) -
I got the ability to create a werewolf and I don't know how best to utilize it.

Now that I understand a bit better the AP system, I've taken a look at the generic characters and I have 5:
the mender (who's also been a gambler)
the wizard (who's through up to druid)
a scoundrel/ranger future gunner

an altmystic
a plague doctor

All my generic characters have been raised more in magic classes. I made the plague doctor a werewolf on a test-save but I don't think it's a good match -- he has just ok stats -- doesn't excel in anything. I thought it would be a good mix of skills, since plague-doctor has "into the fray" and poison burst and seems to do well next to enemies, but doesn't have excellent defense.

I think I could also try with the ranger character -- because upping attack stat would be helpful, but the skills of the werewolf seem all really close range and this character should not really be in the thick of battle.

Secondly, my altmystic - I don't know what a good complementary class could be ... I'm thinking templar.

[Conan The Librarian]

You’re right that a WW is more of a physical melee class. Note that while there are a handful of ranged classes, unless you’re ok with that Ranger stagnating in terms of AP, you will eventually need to turn it into some other melee classes to keep on learning stuff / unlock other ranged class. So, imo, WW sounds like a decent enough fit for the ranger. I never think of my troops as “melee or ranged” in the grand scheme of things, but moreso in terms of “physical or magical”, more offensive vs defensive etc becsuse the job system is likely going to have you jump around a good bit between melee and ranged with some of your physical heroes. Thankfully, don’t stress about this decision too much (with WW esp) since you will be able to gain some more WE badges through various means as the game progresses.

[King Joshington]

Originally posted by Conan The Librarian:

You’re right that a WW is more of a physical melee class. Note that while there are a handful of ranged classes, unless you’re ok with that Ranger stagnating in terms of AP, you will eventually need to turn it into some other melee classes to keep on learning stuff / unlock other ranged class. So, imo, WW sounds like a decent enough fit for the ranger. I never think of my troops as “melee or ranged” in the grand scheme of things, but moreso in terms of “physical or magical”, more offensive vs defensive etc becsuse the job system is likely going to have you jump around a good bit between melee and ranged with some of your physical heroes.

I think that's a good explanation -- melee vs magic.
Do you think there can be some decent crossover? Like the alchymiste & templar mix or something?

Originally posted by Conan The Librarian:

Thankfully, don’t stress about this decision too much (with WW esp) since you will be able to gain some more WE badges through various means as the game progresses.

Oh that's excellent. I was afraid to ask but that's nice to know.

[Conan The Librarian]

Originally posted by King Joshington:

I think that's a good explanation -- melee vs magic.
Do you think there can be some decent crossover? Like the alchymiste & templar mix or something?

Yeah, exactly, it has more to do with "what is the big picture of what I envision for a character?". More physical more magical? Defense vs offense? Speed? Maybe I want X passive from this class and Y passive from this class combined with Z counter from this class and I'll focus around obtaining those. Maybe I want a more hybrid-type hero (I won't list the classes for spoiler reasons since you've mentioned that), but pay attention to the damage-scaling details on any given ability, whether it's Attack, Magic, or Hybrid.

So all that being said, yes, there can indeed be crossovers which works IF you "plan for it" decently enough. There can alternatively be some scenarios where you're not quite sure what you want for a hero, grab a hodge-podge of abilities, and end up with something you're not quite satisfied with. If you're not wanting to research a lot and "spoil" things (which is perfectly fine to want to "experience and explore the game" yourself"), that's no problem, because your time is just a learning experience. As you progress, you'll figure out more and more how to make cool ability combos which will help your later game go better, or, (like many have said they've done), you take your knowledge of the game and restart your campaign on a new save and see how you can apply it better on a second attempt. This game is all about experimentation and flexibility.

Originally posted by Conan The Librarian:

Thankfully, don’t stress about this decision too much (with WW esp) since you will be able to gain some more WE badges through various means as the game progresses.

Oh that's excellent. I was afraid to ask but that's nice to know.

Yeah, while later on there might be "more restrictions" in terms of the badge classes, for the most part, the rule of thumb is "You might get one now, but later on you'll be able to obtain more via crafting" (not necessarily saying it's "super easy" and you'll be drowning in badges, just that you can oftentimes get what you want / need for your crew later on). There is also a SMALL % chance as random loot to get one of the badges. In the past there were some bugs regarding said drop rate and some players got a lot of badges haha. From what I understand, things have been adjusted to where 6 Eyes wants them, but hey, ya might get lucky.

[King Joshington]

Solid advice all around.
I've also thought about putting the game down and waiting until it's fully released -- and then just restarting with my current knowledge.
I don't actually know how long the game is. Without spoiling, I'm just after getting the second relic. I don't think I'm actually that far through ...