Is there any way to make one of the secret classes thematically viable? (SPOILERS)

[JugsOfHolyness]

Go away. Shoo.


















So I'm trying to make a build[imgur.com] based upon a character called Alucard[hellsing.fandom.com], an over the top gun wielding vampire. If you were to translate his fighting style to an RPG, he is most definitely a DPS character.

The problem is, I'm having trouble building a DPS character based around the Vampire class. Vampires gets guns. Great! Alucard uses guns. Warmage lets you infuse your bullets with magic. Great! In addition to knowing forbidden magic, Alucard also used bullets infused with holy water and magic to kill other supernatural beings. But I'm hearing about how people's Ranger/Warmage gets guaranteed crit and all that jazz that I can't help but think that if I go Vampire/Warmage I'm regulated to a support only build.

[Conan The Librarian]

As the saying goes, "There's more than one way to skin a cat". Some people like capitalizing on [Bat Form] for the mobility and pair it with the Gunner's high ground passive for extra damage. [Execute] is also super strong. Honestly, I wouldn't be too concerned about it as the amount of builds that work with Dual Guns like you have there are quite varied. IMO (with that screenshot as reference), I don't see the point to [Blood Magic] and [Economy] as Warmage spells aren't super costly for the most part.

Possible two custom passives:

Height Advantage and Crit Passive

Crit Passive + Crit Damage (if gear is good enough)

Crit Passive 1 and 2

Crit Passive and Versatility (if you want the spells to be able to crit and maybe some extra mana to fuel [Pulsar]

So, yeah--Vampire passives good, not really too difficult to have something good with Vamp / Warmage.

Edit: If you really want a mana passive of some sort, you can also use Warmage's [Mana Leach] to fuel your spells...certainly better than [Blood Magic] in this instance...

Second Edit: I was dumb and didn't account for one of the passives needing to be [Dual Wield]...some days...

[Mechalibur]

Vampire/Warmage is definitely a strong build. Instead of Blood Magic/Economy, I'd personally go for Leech Mana/Dual Wield. That gives you an extra attack each time you use infused edge, and Leech Mana should get you enough MP to use Pulsar every turn after the first. If you have really high crit from your gear, you can also forgo Leech Mana for Versatile.

It certainly wouldn't be a support build at all.

[RavenOfRazgriz]

The "de-facto" Vampire/Warmage build is with Dual Wield and Leech Mana. Your basic hits gain you plenty of MP (two Gun shots with Leech Mana is surprisingly MP-rewarding), Infused Edge allows you to bypass Evade Magic and Evade Skill due to its unique mechanics, and the unit has access to both the Vampire's utility and Warmage's Area options in a pinch. You're also not as reliant on your equipment - unlike a Critical Build, which has to lean much harder into what it does - which gives you more room for variation. Bat Form combined with Guns also makes it impossible for enemies to escape your threat zone. Also, while Infused Edge into Pulsar is the "damage" combo you want, the fact Infused Edge + Element Bolt is only 10 MP means the unit can technically even equip Mystic Shield in a pinch if you need it to be tankier - something the Sniper-Shot happy Ranger builds can't.

And, like Conan said, you're not necessarily locked into those Passives. Dual Wield is far from necessary, and could be any number of other options like Attack Expert / Mind Expert / Hallowed Mind / Hallowed Body, or one of the many Passives that skews more towards survival or secondary effects.

And that's ultimately where the true value of the Vampire / Warmage build is - it does amazing damage while also having the versatility that makes your character a fleshed-out overall unit in a pinch. Versatile Sniper-Shot spamming builds do a lot of damage, but they require very specific Passive / equipment setups and if "do damage" isn't your problem-solver then they're more likely to struggle. Not that it's a bad build in its own right - its not. The best way to describe the difference, I think, is to say a Critical-Ranger build has to be DPS, while a Vampire-Warmage can be DPS, without sacrificing it's ability to do other things.

[Climhazzard]

I use Hallowed body and dual wield on my Vampire/warmage. She's really a beast. I'm not really sure you need leech mana since you can drain mana with infuse>soul suck every now and then, but maybe it's better to be able to use pulsar every turn idk.

The advantage of vampire for this imo is speed and mobility. Being able to fly lets you equip boots with +2 move, so you can reach good vantage points much easier than other gunner builds. Like in the final battle of the ancient paths, I just flew her over to a ledge and shot the boss to death out of range of any enemies.

[Sdric]

Hm, Vampire doesn't exactly have the best stats for a Gunner. If you're max level and have finished leveling (meaning you don't need stat growth anymore) you can make it work. If you take Vampire while your character still grows he'll start to fall of really soon.

Thus the response to your question depends on how much time you are willing to invest in both this game and this character - and obviously - the difficulty you're palying on.

If you're playing with increased difficulty modifiers I'd say, no its not viable for a playthrough. If it's default difficulty I'd say go for it.

[Tuidjy]

Vampire/Warmage IS the ULTIMATE baddаss gunner build. Forget critical builds - they are fine, but they work best with primary classes that have an intrinsic "Know Weakness" like werewolf or ranger. The vampire is more about consistent damage at a ludicrous speed, with a good balance between attack and mind, and with the added versatility of vampire spell.

Vampire/warmage is one of my three "combat beasts":
1) Critical based, three debuffs per round, melee range, stab/stab/boom (werewolf)
2) Critical based, arrow/boom, one turn, snipe the next, ranger utilities
3) High attack values, extreme range, bang/bang/boom, vampire utilities

Each has its place, and the vampire is the simplest to play, safest to use, and easiest to get where he's needed and fix whatever the problem is.

It's a super simple concept:
- vampire chassis, for the guns, flight, and execute
- dual wield for an extra attack, and higher ATK
- warmage for the third attack, tailored to the enemy, and the ability to add a vampire spell

At this point, you have nuts range, you can fly anywhere, ignoring height, obstacles and choke points, you can usually get side attacks, and often back attacks, and when needed, you can stack a vampire spell for wink and wrinkle.

For your last passive, I like three choices, depending on enemies:
1) Attack expert. Dumb, sheer ATK for more damaging attacks. Keep it simple.
2) Leech mana. So you can always tack a Pulsar on, instead of some weaker spell.
3) Elemental mastery. The effects may seem small, but on oh so many maps, with higher enemy stats, it is just enough to one shot someone instead of getting them down to critical.

Versatile or Know Weakness can be tempting, but there are other builds that use them better. Stick to constant damage on this guy, for reliability.

Finally leveling: You can alternate between vampire and warmage. Vampire gets great speed with solid ATK/MND, warmage gets solid speed with great ATK/MND. Once again, dirt simple.

If you want to lean on the guns more than on the spells and raise your guaranteed damage at the cost of magic extras (which is not necessary for my party) you can also level in Werewolf. But I have my other combat beasts, and a vessel/warmage who can also dish out both weapon and soul damage, so I like my gunner to be more balanced.

I do not know why, but while my two critical build seem flashier, and seem to do more work as I play, my vampire gunner is the one who most often gets MVP. It must be because he is dealing constantly impressive damage, every turn, and never has to miss a turn due to positioning etc. It may be also because due to his extreme range, he gets to take out enemies that survived a previous attacks with damage not healed by their allies.

Originally posted by Sdric:

Hm, Vampire doesn't exactly have the best stats for a Gunner. If you're max level and have finished leveling (meaning you don't need stat growth anymore) you can make it work. If you take Vampire while your character still grows he'll start to fall of really soon.

Why?

Because of the lowish ATK? It's compensated by the high speed. This said, if you want balls out damage, yes, leveling in werewolf is the way to go... But I did most of my play on +25%, and now I mess at +50% with maxed characters, and my vampire/warmage leveled vampire/warmage is keeping up with the two werewolf leveled characters just fine. The extra 20ish speed helps.

[RavenOfRazgriz]

Originally posted by Sdric:

If you're playing with increased difficulty modifiers I'd say, no its not viable for a playthrough.

This is completely un-true. Vampire/Warmage is a great damage dealer even on the highest settings.

[OnlyOffensive]

vampire / warmage is pretty good on very hard, so you can play it without a doubt.

The only thing i dont like about vampire / warmage is that its very hard to get mana for night embrace. Of course its more because of warmage is very good self reliable dps, but vampire gives it some advantages too. Guns / bows for ranged, bat form to dominate battlefield, some new infusions, execute and some charm never hurts.

[Conan The Librarian]

Originally posted by OnlyOffensive:

vampire / warmage is pretty good on very hard, so you can play it without a doubt.

The only thing i dont like about vampire / warmage is that its very hard to get mana for night embrace.

...unless you either use one of the many mana passives mentioned above (like [Mana Leach]) or [Infused Edge] that mana steal spell from the Vampire...they have zero mana problems...not sure what you're talking about.

[OnlyOffensive]

yea, i dont have mana steal spell yet, so i forgot about it. I wonder if melee vampire / warmage has any advantages.

[Tuidjy]

Originally posted by OnlyOffensive:

yea, i dont have mana steal spell yet, so i forgot about it. I wonder if melee vampire / warmage has any advantages.

Apart from melee weapons having much higher attack than even the best pistols?

The thing that makes me seldom use melee vampires is not that they are bad - they are still pretty great. It's just that other classes can use a wider selection of melee weapons, and can combine them with abilities that build on those weapons intrinsics. If you'll be using two weapons with three debuffs among them, you probably want guarranteed criticals, and werewolves do this better than vampires. Or if you want truly massive weapons, a vessel can rock dual scythes.

So my vampire usually ends up with guns. I the map for some reason needs more melee, it's not as if the character lacks mastery in other classes...

[OnlyOffensive]

werewolf only good with dual wield? I guess i can use my vampire as ranged and maybe try my assassin/gunner as werewolf something?

What is good combo for werewolf?