Hell Let Loose
My take on HLL: mil sims are **** and created by people who don't get the point of video games. They have relatively short life spans, a bit like sword games, and this game is no exception.
My first one was America’s Army 3, then Red Orchestra, and now this...

It's a good idea on paper, but there is little incentive to rack up hours in these games because, in reality, you have little control over the outcome of the game. So, it's just a goofy RP FPS until it gets forgotten and a new clone comes out.

Honorable mention of disdain for the fact that we get these annoying blurs when bullets come near. The hallmark of not getting the point of video games.
Thanks to Epic for buying the game for me, but I'm going back to DayZ and CS.
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Сообщения 1630 из 49
Gates is KIA mate and a good thing too.
Автор сообщения: Meddle92
Автор сообщения: tmo97
It's a matter of appealing to many different kinds of people, in this case, a hundred, but there's a system. If you are an officer, you can influence other squads, for example, by giving the other officers key information. It /will/ change the outcome
Or also just destroying enemy outposts and garrisons is the easiest way to influence the flow of a game.


If you're the only dude doing that in a team of noobs, your efforts will still be for nothing. You have no real power over the outcome. You can't ace the whole team like in CS or out beam 10 peasants like in Old Rust Recoil.
I remember people like those in this thread when Battlebit came out.
That ♥♥♥♥ was supposed to change gaming or idk. AAA studios were bozos and the game was a proof of yadi yada.
Nah and I predicted it right away and refunded it right away, and look at it now. It's dead.
RPing as if you were part of a chain of command gets old real quick.
You can barely get that going in CS at 15k elo. GL with a 100 casuals.
Автор сообщения: Toki's Road to 6k Elo
This is the thread about why some of these criteria create games that do not last, and how seeing this annoys me considering how many devs sulk skill-based gaming "to attract more players".

I'm only going to respond to this here, because the rest isn't worth worrying about.

What's your definition of a game that lasts vs one that doesn't?

Arma 3 released in 2013 and in its 12th year since release has a concurrent average playerbase of 10k players (36k unique in the last 24hrs alone), pretty impressive for a 12 year old milsim title.

Squad released onto Steam early access in 2015, 10 years ago this year and has an average playercount of 15k (unique player count so high that battlemetrics doesn't even show it), even more impressive for a milsim shooter.

You're judging the success of these titles based on absurdly high playercounts, which you see in games like counter-strike (an entirely different type of shooter that appeals to a very different audience) and think that because these games don't have player counts in the hundreds of thousands that they must be doing something wrong.

The reality is that this aspect of the shooter genre is targeted at a very specific audience, a market that isn't as big as the more casual and competitive shooters like CS, CoD and BF (amongst others). Whilst none of these games are perfect, they do well to hit their target audience appropriately.

HLL is absolutely not "fine as is", there are a great many improvements that it needs, all of which have been suggested over the years. It's not likely to happen, sadly. But this doesn't change the fact that, 6 years later, the average player count is holding steady, which is more than enough for most people.
Отредактировано datCookie; 5 янв в 1:27
Buddy, they gutted the recoil in Rust "to attract more players" right after peaking at 244k players in 2021, and people like you (casuals into games like these) were the first to say, "It's good, it's to attract more players."

People are all about themselves—that's the truth. You can only debate with friends, and even there, it's challenging. Dialectics is one of the greatest lies ever told.
Автор сообщения: Toki's Road to 6k Elo
Buddy, they gutted the recoil in Rust "to attract more players" right after peaking at 244k players in 2021, and people like you (casuals into games like these) were the first to say, "It's good, it's to attract more players."

People are all about themselves—that's the truth. You can only debate with friends, and even there, it's challenging. Dialectics is one of the greatest lies ever told.

I don't know where you get that I'm a casual into games like these, since I've played almost 2k hours between Arma 3, Squad and HLL combined, not included over 100 hours in RO2 back in the day. I haven't played Rust in over a decade and whatever changes they made to attract more players are irrelevant to this discussion.

HLL is not a good example of doing whats right to attract more players. It's a casual shooter with some hardcore elements. Most of its playerbase are casual players having been drawn in by sales and free weekends (or stuff like the EGS free period). It's also been deliberately designed (unfortunately) to be more accessible to a wider audience, as stated by the original lead game dev design, Max, back in the day.

In truth, you're a newcomer to this and have no clue what you're talking about.
These games are casual games... you can't take a mil-sim with a chain of command seriously. Too many variables depend on external factors for your efforts to be significant. Also, your most played game has 600 hours. A bit ironic to tell me that I don't know what I am talking about. I've seen games like this one come and go, and I am telling you why they come and go, and why others are still here.
Отредактировано Toki; 5 янв в 1:40
Автор сообщения: Toki's Road to 6k Elo
These games are casual games... you can't take a mil sim with a chain of command seriously. Too many variables depend on external factors for your efforts to be significant.
Also, your most played game has 600 hours. A bit bold to tell me that I don't know what I am talking about.
I've seen games like this one come and go, and I am telling you why they come and go.

Again, what is your definition of games like these coming and going? What period of time are you talking about here? A few years? A decade? Define it for us.

Again, Arma 3 is now in its 12th year and still going strong. Squad is in its 10th year and still going strong. HLL might be much more casual, but is in its 6th year (not including 2 years of pre-steam release) and also still showing no decline in its community (epic games free period not withstanding).

These games are very clearly not to your taste, which is fine. But don't go pretending like you're the arbiter of what these games should be, because there's a very clear market being tapped into with them and they do last a good long time. The same cannot be said of games like CoD and BF, which have player numbers in the hundreds of thousands, but die off when the new title releases every 2 years.
"How many hours to master a thing?
The concept of mastering a skill often brings up the "10,000-hour rule," popularized by Malcolm Gladwell in his book Outliers. This idea suggests that it takes around 10,000 hours of deliberate practice to achieve mastery in a field. However, this number is more of a guideline than a strict rule."
Автор сообщения: Toki's Road to 6k Elo
"How many hours to master a thing?
The concept of mastering a skill often brings up the "10,000-hour rule," popularized by Malcolm Gladwell in his book Outliers. This idea suggests that it takes around 10,000 hours of deliberate practice to achieve mastery in a field. However, this number is more of a guideline than a strict rule."

You have less than 1 hour played in Squad, how many hours do you have in Arma 3?

Either way, please define what you consider to be the appropriate length of time that a game just comes and goes. Until you can define this, there's no point continuing this discussion.

To reiterate, Arma 3 and Squad aren't dead, nor close to it. Their player counts are still pretty high. HLL has remained steady over the years with occasional jumps due to sales and free weekends.
I am not arbitrating what they should be. They just are, and I am saying that a 10k population is not enough to put all the effort into these games.
My reference? Rust, which stole 5k hours of my life to 'bring more players' at a 244k population.
If 244k was not enough for the role-players of Rust, why is 10k enough for the role-players of these games?
Could it be that you guys just advance yourselves without coherent and constant standards?
My problem with that? The fact that games avoid being skill-based to 'attract more players' while games like these permanently sit at 10k until they die, which lacks coherence.
I would give a lot for another Rust Recoil or another Gunz Online.
Автор сообщения: Toki's Road to 6k Elo
I am not arbitrating what they should be. They just are, and I am saying that a 10k population is not enough to put all the effort into these games.
My reference? Rust, which stole 5k hours of my life to 'bring more players' at a 244k population.
If 244k was not enough for the role-players of Rust, why is 10k enough for the role-players of these games?
Could it be that you guys just advance yourselves without coherent and constant standards?
My problem with that? The fact that games avoid being skill-based to 'attract more players' while games like these permanently sit at 10k until they die, which makes no sense.
I would give a lot for another Rust Recoil or another Gunz Online.

Why are you bringing Rust into this? Rust isn't a milsim, it's a survival shooter, a very different type of game in the genre. Further, if you don't think the current player counts are enough to justify spending large amounts of time playing these kinds of games, then simply don't. The tens of thousands of others that do play are more than happy to do so, because they can always find full servers to play on.
Buddy, if I start telling you my hours across games, that will be the next thing you'll pick on. Been there, done that. I don't need a thousand hours in one of these numerous titles to see what they all have in common and why games that do well, do well.
Автор сообщения: Toki's Road to 6k Elo
Buddy, if I start telling you my hours across games, that will be the next thing you'll pick on. Been there, done that. I don't need a thousand hours in one of these numerous titles to see what they all have in common and why games that do well, do well.

Considering that you've clearly not played any of the aforementioned games for an amount of time and are comparing them to unrelated titles, it's pretty obvious you don't understand why these games are still going strong and doing well. Just because they don't have the player counts YOU personally prefer them to have, doesn't mean they aren't doing well.

Squad has actually been doing nothing but seeing increases to its player counts since its release back in 2015. You've no idea what you're talking about here buddy.
Dialectics is one of the biggest waste of time on earth, lmao.
It always comes down to, "I like green and you like blue, here are bricks".
Mil Sim RPers think 10k active players is good, I think it's not.
RPers in Rust thought that 240k active players was not enough, I thought it was.

At the end of the day, gamers like me having absolutely nothing to play.
Автор сообщения: Toki's Road to 6k Elo
Also, yeah, this is a military sim in the measure where it has a chain of command and too many players to make individual contribution significant.
It's what I have in mind and it's the problem with the genre.
The same problem can be felt in Arma where you can't do ♥♥♥♥ as a solo. You're an ant just roaming around and saying funny things on voice chat to entertain yourself.

Starting a debate over that is like starting a debate over whether or not 7dayz2die is a survival game because you hate the RPG elements in it.

"Military simulation (mil-sim) games are designed to provide a realistic and immersive experience of military operations. Here are some defining aspects:
Realism: Mil-sim games strive for a high degree of realism in terms of graphics, sound effects, and physics. This includes realistic weapon mechanics, ballistics, and damage models.
Tactical Gameplay: These games emphasize strategy, planning, and teamwork. Players often need to coordinate with others, follow orders, and execute complex missions.
Authentic Environments: The game settings are usually based on real-world locations and scenarios. The maps are often detailed and expansive, providing a realistic backdrop for military operations.
Complex Mechanics: Mil-sim games often have intricate gameplay mechanics, such as managing resources, navigating complex terrains, and using various military vehicles and equipment.
Mission Variety: Players engage in a variety of mission types, including reconnaissance, assault, defense, and rescue operations. Each mission requires different strategies and approaches.
Attention to Detail: These games pay close attention to the details of military life, including the chain of command, military protocols, and realistic communication methods.
Immersive Storytelling: Many mil-sim games incorporate detailed storylines and character development, providing a deeper narrative context for the missions and operations."

Go debate with Bill Gate if you do not like the criteria it lists for a mil sim. This is not the thread for it. This is the thread about why some of these criteria create games that do not last, and how seeing this annoys me considering how many devs sulk skill-based gaming "to attract more players".
There are many skill-based games that have the potential to have more players than these niche artistic non-profit projects. Yet...

It is objectively not a milsim by many of the definitions in the copy paste you've provided except for maybe "Authentic Environments", which is probably the only thing they do moderately well.
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Дата создания: 4 янв в 15:26
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