Turret rotation from the dev briefing

[Fork [509th]]

Just so it's front and centre...

Turret transit 360° rates (from my military books, and yes, I'm x-military and an amateur military historian)
-----------------------
Tank: speed (seconds)

Sherman (all): 15
Tiger I: 60
Panther: 18
Note: dependant on engine RPM. Faster if engine is near redline.
M8 Greyhound: 11
Sd.Kfz.234/2 Puma: 35
Note: turret transit was manual
Luchs Light Tank: 8.3
Stuart Light Tank: 14.3

References
Stannius, Mark. "Tank turrets". The Atlantic Wall in Denmark. Mark Stannius. Retrieved 28 December 2014
Zaloga, Steven (1993). Sherman Medium Tank 1942–1945. UK: Osprey Publishing. ISBN 978-1-85532-296-7
Green, Michael. Anderson, Thomas. Schulz, Frank. German Tanks of World War II. Zenith Imprint, 2000.ISBN 9780760306710
Hogg, Ian V. Greenhill Armoured Fighting Vehicles Data Book (London: Greenhill Books, 2000), p.221, "Sd.Kfz. 234/2
Zaloga, Steve (2002). M8 Greyhound Light Armored Car. Osprey. ISBN 1-84176-468-X.
Jentz, Thomas (1995). Germany's Panther Tank. Atglen: Schiffer Pub. ISBN 0-88740-812-5
Carruthers, Bob (2013). Tiger I in Combat. Coda Books Ltd. ISBN 978-1-78159-129-1

[Sgt_Georges]

We should have electric rotation speed (max) with the WASD keys (as we have currently), then when we hold Shift, the turret rotation should be hand cranked for slow/fine adjustments imo.

[happyapilot]

Keep them historicly accurate, I would think.. that would be the fairest of option.. then if players find it to slow or fast.. one can think well you want to play a WWII game, this is how it was back then. Neverthelless it's gonna be darn hard to make everybody happy i suppose.. it's all up to the dev's to decide..

[Nordkindchen]

I strongly advocate to implement the realistic turret turn rates!

One thing that makes authentic shooters so appealing is to be able to relieve what obstacles the real vehicles had to face. If you give each tank arbitrary statistics for balancing reasons, then you degrade it to a simple reskin of some imaginary vehicle.

Please make the vehicles as authentic as possible. There is enough room to balance the tanks via availability and or gamemode/map design.

[Ayrton]

Would you provide quotes and citations on the Tiger I and the Luchs traverse speeds, please?

[Andy]

Ayrton a écrit :

Would you provide quotes and citations on the Tiger I and the Luchs traverse speeds, please?

In the OP

[Ayrton]

Andy a écrit :

Ayrton a écrit :

Would you provide quotes and citations on the Tiger I and the Luchs traverse speeds, please?

In the OP

There's no quotes from the OP's listed references, just his statements of conclusion and a list of references.

[Fork [509th]]

I can find the page reference, but let's be honest, it took me a while to find the information and you're asking me to go back, re-check out the books, and find the page where I found it. Next time I reference something, I'll add the exact page number.

[Thahat]

Andy a écrit :

Ayrton a écrit :

Would you provide quotes and citations on the Tiger I and the Luchs traverse speeds, please?

In the OP

it seesm to be on point from what i can find on the internet, it also nicely aligns with a video i found at
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rizo1BaKSdU where the tiger rotates a quarter in 12 ish seconds. i did find that its heavilly engine RPM dependant though, so if you HEAVILLY redlined the engine (risky) you could maybe knock a few seconds off 60. though to be fair, most tank crews would mostly rotate the hull in the right direction and only then do the last bit with the turret rotation (unless you are witmanns gunner, possibly. )

All that said, the tiger needs a rotate-in-place option.

[PanzerBrun]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bj0AzL95Weg&t=948s

Min 16:40 of the video about turret rotation speed of the TIger 1. From the mouth of a man that fought in one.

[Ayrton]

There's what seem to be conflicts in what I find. But one source seems more detailed than others.

Jentz and Doyle in Germany's Tiger Tanks, D.W. to Tiger I the authors at p 52 list features from the Tiger I Ausf E description about the Krupp turret that were with the illustrations for the Tiger I turret:

The fastest the turret can traverse by hydraulic power is one full circle of 360 (degrees) in 60 seconds.

But, in Tiger Tanks At War, authors Michael Green and James Brown after going over a traverse speed test on the Tiger II done by the Americans, state as to the Tiger I Ausf E at p. 86:

British Army test reports showed that the turret on the Tiger E also turned 360 degrees in 19 seconds with its power traverse system set at the high ratio and with the engine speed at 2000 revolutions per minute (rpm). With low engine speed (1000 rpm) and with the power traverse system set at the low ratio, the turret took seventy seven seconds to rotate 360 degrees.

It's also the case that the King Tiger had close to those traverse speeds as can be found in the Green and Brown book cited above and another book by Green, Tiger Tanks.

Jentz in his book on the Panther, Germany's Panther Tank, specifically notes that the turret traverse was sped up from a fixed amount for a full revolution in the earlier Panther D to the engine assisted variable ranges from a slow time of 93 seconds to a fast time of 15 seconds for a full revolution for the later Panther A. p. 60.

As to the previous posts:

Interesting 12 second vid. But it looks to me like it shows probably at least 1/3 of a full rotation - or maybe more - like close to a 1/2 total maybe in the 10 seconds of turret traverse shown (the last 2 seconds are of the gun firing) since it appears to start earlier than the barrel at a true 90 degrees - and like the poster said, there's the variable of engine speed to consider.

As to the vid of Tiger vs Sherman, I've seen that video many times before. It's off on some things but I just note that the German guy is listed as a radio operator, basically the hull machine gunner, not a turret position. He might be right based on what his tank did. He might not be. I don't know. And I can't tell and wouldn't know if his statement is accurate for a general standard.

I think the 12 sec video is consistent with a higher speed traverse and the German radio operator is consistent with low speed turning.

I think the German standard was basically what was in the Panther A and Tiger II. To have a simple fixed standard runs contrary to the British test results and the performance on other high end German tanks of the time.

[Andy]

Ayrton a écrit :

Jentz in his book on the Panther, Germany's Panther Tank, specifically notes that the turret traverse was sped up from a fixed amount for a full revolution in the earlier Panther D to the engine assisted variable ranges from a slow time of 93 seconds to a fast time of 15 seconds for a full revolution for the later Panther A. p. 60.

Panthers had a governer fitted limiting the revs to 2500, which makes the 15 seconds unobtainable. Max therfor being 18 seconds.
Page 61 - 62. Reference 4.3.3

[Ayrton]

Andy a écrit :

Ayrton a écrit :

Jentz in his book on the Panther, Germany's Panther Tank, specifically notes that the turret traverse was sped up from a fixed amount for a full revolution in the earlier Panther D to the engine assisted variable ranges from a slow time of 93 seconds to a fast time of 15 seconds for a full revolution for the later Panther A. p. 60.

Panthers had a governer fitted limiting the revs to 2500, which makes the 15 seconds unobtainable. Max therfor being 18 seconds.
Page 61 - 62. Reference 4.3.3

True enough up to a point. By that same cite, it was Panthers from Nov 1943 on which had the engine speed governor fitted. Not impossible to remove or disable a governor, I suppose.

The big point though is that the turret traverse speed was much different - faster or capable of being faster (or slower if desired) - than what the game currently has. (Panther at 51 seconds for a full revolution in the game.)

I for one hope that the devs look to historical references for setting the standards for the tanks in the game when the revisions to tanks come around.

[Fork [509th]]

What we all forget is that a majority of the tank battles occured with the tank stopped, and especially with the Germans, the engine OFF to conserve fuel. Turret rotation would be normally done with the engine at idle or at a lower-than-max rpm - having a tank with a working engine = your life isn't over.

[Ayrton]

Fork a écrit :

What we all forget is that a majority of the tank battles occured with the tank stopped, and especially with the Germans, and the engine OFF to conserve fuel, especially during the last two years of the war. So turret rotation would be normally done with the engine at idle or at a lower-than-max rpm - having a tank with a working engine = your life isn't over.

Do you have a reference and citation/quote for that statement?

[Fork [509th]]

Ayrton a écrit :

Fork a écrit :

What we all forget is that a majority of the tank battles occured with the tank stopped, and especially with the Germans, and the engine OFF to conserve fuel, especially during the last two years of the war. So turret rotation would be normally done with the engine at idle or at a lower-than-max rpm - having a tank with a working engine = your life isn't over.

Do you have a reference and citation/quote for that statement?

RFOL!!! Blew soda right out of my nose on that Ayrton! :D