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This is a TACTICAL shooter. It's not meant to be a run and gun game.
Specialty roles such as flamethrower and medic are for support.
There's many different aspects that go into this game opposed to just shoot em up.
I have to agree that if you don't care for the way this game feels.
It may just not be the game for you.
No one has ever said that HLL was intended to be a "gun fetish program", it's not even been implied. However, they do expect that a game that advertises itself as a World War 2 first person shooter has decent gunplay mechanics. The OP may not be totally correct in everything they've said, but they aren't wrong when they say that the gunplay in HLL is bland and boring. It's also incredibly simplistic and doesn't at all benefit the gameplay.
It baffles me how people can so easily dismiss such a core feature of a shooter game...
No, HLL is NOT a tactical shooter, it's never been advertised as one and most players don't play it that way. Not to mention that you can take ANY shooter game ever made and make use of "tactics" in order to play it. Likewise any shooter game can also be a run and gun if people are brave enough to try, it doesn't mean that either method is recommended or viable. In HLL, it is absolutely viable to run and gun because the game is designed in such a way that allows it, likewise you can also just sit back and camp your targets from a distance. There's almost nothing in between.
I find it interesting that you emphasised the word 'tactical' and ignored the word 'shooter', as if the game being a shooter meant it didn't have to have good gunplay mechanics because players should be playing with a tactical mindset... In my experience with a variety of different shooters; players are more likely to play tactically when the gunplay has more depth to it.
The "many aspects" this game has are mostly shallow as anything and don't work well with each other at all. Take the existence of a Medic role (a role limited to revives and having more bandages) combined with the respawn system (endless spawning makes death meaningless majority of the time), or the existence of Artillery and the necessity of Recon teams to spend an entire match killing the people who operate them.
Or the large maps we have available that only utilise 5 2x2 grid squares for sectors which can only be captured by dogpiling the objective, with most of the map being left out and whatever areas around the objectives used for spawn placement so entire squads can spawn behind enemy lines magically.
As far as gunplay goes; things like recoil may as well be non-existent because you only need to tap fire most of the time. Large maps means longer standard engagement ranges. Suppression is useless for the same reason, because why would you suppress a target you can just kill with ease? Players can sprint from one end of the map and back again, then stop to aim perfectly with no ill effects. The gunplay is a joke and not at all up to par with the concept the original developers had in mind for this game.
Whatever punishments the game hands out for stupid decisions, are countered by rewards for just as stupid experiences. Reaction times are far more important than almost any other shooting related aspect this game has. A player doesn't even need to ensure their aim hits a critical area, they just need to make sure they hit their target within the kill distance of the weapon they're firing (minus headshots) and their target will drop, that's it. That is literally the extent of gunplay in this game. It's a big joke.
That.. sounds like tactical gunplay to me.
Let me correct what I said earlier by saying. "You can run and gun but it's not going to be super effective without proper thought out tactics."
This game does require you to think more tactically. Unlike CoD games where it's who fires faster.
By run and gun I mean no thinking involved in making decisions. Just mice running through a maze on small maps like CoD.
The gunplay may seem lacking because a lot of folks like to play as a run and gun. But this limits your accuracy on target. Which I think ticks a lot of people off that are used to just having solidly aimed guns. In reality no-one is a stone arm when firing off a gun. You're always going to have some kind of sway. Unless you are stationary.
HLL you need to think before you peek spots or run in certain directions without teammates. Focusing on taking out OPs and Garrisons. As well as calling out enemy positions.
I'm unsure what you're referring to with the 1 hit kills. I've used quite a big variety of weapons and dont ever get 1 hit kills with the exception of the sniper or tanks. Or headshots.
Addressing the support focus on classes. I feel like this is necessary. Otherwise every single class would drop focus on their role. Medics would not bother picking up teammates with better weapons, if they themselves can just take everyone out. Their focus then changes to just grabbing kills instead of rolling as a support class. Which they are meant to be.
If you expand the tags for the game on steam store they read out as follows:
-Shooter
-FPS
-World War II
-Action
-Realistic
-Multiplayer
-War
-Singleplayer
-Military
-Tactical <-----
-Simulation
-First-Person
-Massively Multiplayer
-PvP
-Strategy <-----
-Historical
-Gore
-Mature
-Violent
-Indie
I appreciate the response, I'll try and break it down.
I think we differ in opinion with what we'd consider as "tactics". For me personally, I wouldn't consider a player being more aware (peaking corners before moving and such) as 'tactical'. Things that I would consider as being 'tactical' are listed as, but not limited to the following:
- Suppressive fire to allow teammates to push up with less risk of being shot by enemies in known defensive positions
- Bounding from cover to cover (generally speaking)
- Using smoke grenades as cover for movement, whether across an open gap (like hedgerows) or a field
- Room to room clearing of a building, or buildings, with your squad
- Creating or using distractions to allow teammates to push an objective with less resistance (ie, using squad A to attack from one direction whilst squad B sneaks in from another)
All of these kinds of tactics require proper teamwork, some of which aren't directly related to gunplay but I thought I'd include them to help illustrate my point. In Hell Let Loose, a player can do most things on their own, without the need for any kind of teamwork, because the prevalence of auto/semi-automatic weapons and the ease of use gunplay means that players can and often do wipe multiple enemies off the map within a short time span, all whilst on the move.
I've spent a fair bit of time in rounds in the backline on my own hunting for garrisons and killing any enemies I come across, with not a lot of time spent stopping. All done quite successfully and I know many others that have done the same thing. I've pushed into objectives where the enemy just happened to not be looking when I did, then cleared out a dozen or so of them using the BAR/STG because it's extremely easy to do so.
The biggest reason why there are so many complaints from Veterans about new and/or uncaring players being so high in number is because the game doesn't, in any way, shape or form encourage players to do anything else but spawn, run, kill and die. Whatever teamwork that groups of players utilise is optional and the current state of the game is why a lot of so called "competitive" players don't play in pub matches.
And I maintain that a core of this issue stems from the gunplay and how overly simplistic it is.
What I mean by the OHK is that auto/semi-automatic weapons as well as bolt actions will all OHK up to 200m, with the former going as high as 150-175m with a single shot. SMGs will need multiple, but stationary targets can be killed easily with a headshot even at a distance. If you're not getting kills with such weapons at these distances, I would suspect there might be hit reg or desync issues happening that have long been reported over the years.
The problem I have is that the weapons I mentioned require little to no skill to shoot targets at standard and beyond standard engagement ranges, even if those targets are moving. "Pixel-hunting" is what some players have described it as over the years, IIRC.
My issue with how the roles and other game mechanics function isn't limited to issues with gunplay, nor is the solution to some of those issues related to any suggested fixes to gunplay. The Medic system right now is near useless half because of how gunplay is designed and half because of how the spawn system functions. But that's another discussion altogether.
As far as the tags go, they're all player given and aren't guaranteed to be accurate by any means. I wouldn't trust them as a source for what the game purports itself to be.
if you want to shoot guns, get a hunting license and go out into the woods.
most people here cant to that, so they think playing a game with guns has to be perfectly simulated. that would not be practical - its still just a game and has to be playable.
too cookies statement: "It baffles me how people can so easily dismiss such a core feature of a shooter game"
you are mistaken... this is not a core mechanic of THIS game, and actualy any shooter. none of them gets it right when it comes to simulating shooting.
just think of how a real bullet is influenced by wind, drops over distance, gets ricochet by any small branch or other obstacle in its way. there are also no brick frags from shooting ruined houses... the weight of the rifle, your stamina, or medical condition, your reaction in real from getting shot at...
soo much more that would make this realy unplayable, except of the "propper gunplay".
this game intends to create an atmosphere that we seen on screen, watching movies of WW2 (they are also realy far from reality^^).
it gives the people an idea of what went on back then - dont get me wrong again.. THIS IS A GAME!
it has to be playable for anyone, even without any military education or experience.
so again.... if you want THE REAL THING, go out and hunt, enlist or get hired as a merch.
You keep reiterating that this is a game and not a simulator, I've never said that I wanted it or any other game to simulate real weaponry. Your argument hinges on the belief that I and others want absolute accuracy when it comes to how firearms operate in this game, which is completely untrue,
Secondly, how shooting mechanics function is absolutely a core feature of a game based around being a first person shooter, as well as every other shooter. How those shooters make these mechanics work is dependant on the type of game they're making, where you could have a game as detailed as Arma or Squad, as hardcore as Tarkov and Red Orchestra, or perhaps a little more "competitive" like Counter Strike and Call of Duty. Each game's gunplay mechanics are tailored to the overall design of those games and what the intended experience is.
HLL on the other hand, for the experience it intends to provide, does not have what I would personally consider 'good' gunplay. It is incredibly shallow and simplistic, too much so for the type of game and experience it wishes to provide. Do I want total simulation? Absolutely not. What I want is for there to be more skill required than simple point and click aiming with weapons that will kill any enemy up to a 200m distance (the length of an entire grid square), a system that rewards players who are more skilled at hitting critical areas rather than those who can hit any part of their target and still get the kill.
When you have large maps, an infantry-centric experience and loadouts that allow numerous amounts of players to access auto/semi-automatic weapons, a simplistic approach to gunplay is detrimental to overall gameplay. Amongst other design related issues, players over the years become far too individualistic in how they play, because the game rewards them for doing so and actively encourages it, with the current state of gunplay being a part of that. HLL has a great many design flaws, many of which need improving to help make the overall experience better for everyone.
I would hardly consider discussion and criticism of core mechanics and gameplay "nitpicking", considering how much they affect the experience a player has in-game, for better or worse. You're also the one putting words in my mouth by claiming that I want HLL to simulate real life, despite me never having said such a thing. I've merely made the argument that the gunplay in this game is terrible and needs improvement, nothing more.
I'm not here to debate your every word, but if you can't handle a simple discussion on a core mechanic, I don't understand why you're even here.
i didnt say you want to simulate.. i said it is not a simulator... ^^ a huge difference, but sure, i put words in your mouth, while you cant even read ^^
why do you discuss every little crap on a steam forum? nothing said here will ever change anything.
i can disscuss resonable things, but if you only quote a part of my post to dismantle that, from your perspective, then its not a disscussion at all.
you state your opinion, thats what i did! why do you have to dig out counter arguments?
my reason to play this is the ww2 setting, and what many other games in this genre have tried, playing together!
many have tried, but players ruined that with their BF run and gun, baserape style.
and no... the core mechanic is not the point and click "gunplay", its the play together in a ww2 setting on original maps!
it is, as i already stated - a WARGAME, not a shooter.
you can also shoot in hunting games, but barly any get the actual hunting right, because every loony wants to SHOOT THINGS.