Using an artillery calculator is cheating. Change my mind.

[Birdy]

It's 3rd party software that gives players an advantage that is unfair.

[Birdy]

Origineel geplaatst door Ragnar Ragnarsson:

You're still salty about this or just that desperate for attention? Thank goodness for the "unsub" button. Just remember, whenever you die from arty, the other 99% are laughing at you. :treb::wololo::wololo::wololo::wololo:

it's not about salty anything. I am continuing to reply to the discussion that I started. I'm not going to be cowardly and run away from that.

You keep insinuating that I am acting on some ridiculous pretenses that make it easier for you to dismiss me. You don't have to participate anymore if you don't want too.

Tell me this, who is more desperate for attention, the one engaging in the discussion they started, or the person throwing a fly-by insult as a part of their announcement they wont be debating anymore? Did anyone really need to know you were unfollowing this thread, or was that just for you?

Seems like it was just for you.

[MaDeuce]

I can do it in my head faster than you can with a calculator, so I don't care if you use it.
I don't want to change your mind.

[Corbs]

Origineel geplaatst door Stir Fry:

It's 3rd party software that gives players an advantage that is unfair.

It is just a bunch of mathematical calculations, written down already. Would you rather the game be about doing math or shooting ♥♥♥♥…
Go and do an online math tutorial if there is too much FPS gaming going on here for your enjoyment!
Should we also remove the map for all players except the commander and maybe squad leads?
Because not every soldier in WW2 had a map in his pocket lol

[JD]

I do think Stir Fry has made important views here. HLL developers installed into this game a means to calculate a firing program to balance play vs actual conditions. If arty fire was limited to what game allows then life, as we know it in the kill zones, would perhaps be a bit more "livable".

[Aragorn]

its not cheating and id rather have a teammate use a calculator so myself and other friendlies dont die to bad arty than someone just trying to guess and rely on constant "little higher. little lower" to get good arty down with a way bigger risk of killing your own team

[Corbs]

Anything more than real living messenger pigeons for relaying information is cheating... change my mind!

[Medic K.Boris]

Okay so let's pretend for a minute that this is a "cheat" how exactly are you going to stop someone from using their cell phone app to calculate arty fire? You may think your argument is sound but the way to enforce it has no merit. There is no way to know if someone is using an arty calculator or not.

Not to mention someone posted that they can do it faster in their head. I am in the same boat as them so I don't need to use one but even so? Still no way to prove or enforce anything.

[Emme]

In all honest... If you're so pissed about getting killed in a videogame that you come here making such statements about an arty calculator tool, then you should def stop playing videogames for your own mental health @OP!

[crackshot]

what if he could get a marker and write on the side of an ammo box in game.
sadly he cant .

[Cookiemonsta]

"4. What about X program used outside the game, such as discord? That has features outside the game.

Those programs mimic what is already available in game. They have the POTENTIAL to be abused, but are not abusive tools in their own right. It is ethically cheating once those tools are abused. The tools I am talking about are abusive by their very nature."

Discord does not not mimic what is already available. When I die in-game I can only relay where I was killed to my squad or to those nearby unless I am a SL. In discord if that happens I can call out any game information to anyone, including the Commander, therefore, bypassing the chain-of-command and the game's mechanics.

Another example could be made that discord allows teams to screen share so I don't have to try and describe where the enemy is, you can just watch my screen/map.

To say that one program is more naturally abusive is certainly open to interpretation.

You, yourself, said earlier that any program outside of the game is "outright cheating, or riding the line."

[Villz]

Dude just repeats his dumb questions like they mean anything. Has no proof anyone does better with a calculator but because some people use them it must make it better and because some guy on the internet bragged about it. Its not that anyone doesn't have an answer its because your questions in it of themselves are "HA GOTCHA" biased questions.
You're objectively wrong and had no intention of changing your mind no matter what facts were presented to you in wide array of answers. Didn't even know calculators were a thing for arty, might check it out now to see if theyre useful or not, thanks for letting me know. Hope to see you on other end of my arty shells to see if it works.

[nmballa]

Origineel geplaatst door Stir Fry:

Origineel geplaatst door kingsbishop7:

All forces in WW2 had Range Tables which were Pre-Calculated into Mills. Therefor they didn't even need the "3rd party software". I don't think we can say they were cheating back then.

Specific targets had specific calculated setting for the guns to hit, which were known by the crews. If a target outside those predetermined coordinates was designated, that location data was given to the artillery commander by a forward observer (that had estimated data based on observation.) That semi inaccurate data was then fed to an artillery commander who used a combination of pre established tables, and calculations that were done by an analog calculating device to determine the the correct coordinates. Then they would send fire, and hope is right.

Which is not the same as having ever square meter of an area mapped with easily accessible coordinates. let alone having those coordinates being fed to you by a computer system with the processing power that is equal to 100's of thousands, if not, millions of times faster than any human. So that argument that they had tables is stupid.

Lets compare it to something else.

If I am an AT rocketeer, and I have a program that gives me the exact elevation I need to shoot the rocket to hit a target, that would be cheating. I defy you to say otherwise.

The real crux of this is, people are using tools not provided by the game to gain an advantage.

I couldn't play a competitive chess match using a computer to tell me my moves and say "well, every move of chess is already mapped, so why not have this tool to make my life easier?"

If you use something outside what is provided within the confounds of the game you are playing, you are cheating.

I get your point.

The smaller maps now have made the forward observer/recon calling in/marking targets pretty much useless. Now arty just drops shells on the point or the terrain choke and collects the kills. Bring back the old maps that were massively larger and multiple points of control to take a sector. Back then the game play required recon to mark and communicate enemy positions. They need to just rename recon to sniper as the current game play really has made recon and engineers irrelevant (won't go in to engineer role right now).

With that being said having the calculator was nice but if the enemy approach was shifting as much as it did during old game play, as it required multiple point of control to take a sector, not having someone calling the positions meant you were still firing blind.

[purerockfury]

Using artillery is for the cod children, they get bored hacking cod so they come to HLL to hack and play artillery. They need to remove artillery. I know this will never happen so maybe make artillery not so accurate, where the player sets the direction and distance and the shells fall randomly in a 20m area around the target zone.

[Birdy]

Origineel geplaatst door SoTu Cookiemonsta:

"

Discord does not not mimic what is already available. When I die in-game I can only relay where I was killed to my squad or to those nearby unless I am a SL. In discord if that happens I can call out any game information to anyone, including the Commander, therefore, bypassing the chain-of-command and the game's mechanics.

Another example could be made that discord allows teams to screen share so I don't have to try and describe where the enemy is, you can just watch my screen/map.

To say that one program is more naturally abusive is certainly open to interpretation.

You, yourself, said earlier that any program outside of the game is "outright cheating, or riding the line."

You make a very good point. I don't use discord much, so I don't know about all the features that is has, in particular the screen share. There is certainly some interpretation to what constitutes cheating, that is what this discussion is inherently converging too. being able to speak with players outside the chat capabilities would be an advantage, an arguably unfair advantage. However, I believe that discussing that solely as an advantage would not lead to a general agreement as that being cheating, wholly. It seems more and more that my statement that all 3rd party apps that give an advantage is cheating, may not be solid on it's own.

However, I still contend one app/program can be more naturally abusive than others, is still valid. A program for whom's only function is screen sharing is not the same as a program that only has it as a single feature. Intent and use are important. I do not believe someone using discord for VOIP is the same as a person who also used the extended features to their unfair, advantage.

Recall I said, "outright cheating, or riding the line," My example in this post is better clarifies cheating, vs riding a line a bit better, I think.

[Birdy]

Origineel geplaatst door Villz:

Dude just repeats his dumb questions like they mean anything. Has no proof anyone does better with a calculator but because some people use them it must make it better and because some guy on the internet bragged about it. Its not that anyone doesn't have an answer its because your questions in it of themselves are "HA GOTCHA" biased questions.
You're objectively wrong and had no intention of changing your mind no matter what facts were presented to you in wide array of answers. Didn't even know calculators were a thing for arty, might check it out now to see if they're useful or not, thanks for letting me know. Hope to see you on other end of my arty shells to see if it works.

They are questions that that people who disagree with me and make the point calculators don't help, keep not answering...

You can call them "gotcha" questions if you want, as far as I can see, they are questions that rebut the opposing arguments effectively in a way that is both concise and hard to rebut on their face. If you have an argument that dispels these gotcha questions, please share them.

If you think the main question I keep asking is a gotcha, than answer it. A gotcha question is inherently only valuable in the moment, not in any legitimate debate, so it must not take much explanation to debase them. So.

Why do people use the calculators if it doesn't help them do better?

The only argument you seem to have is to attack your perceived context of my questions, and not the questions themselves. You do have at least some merit in saying I was not expecting someone to change my mind. You also lack the ability to recognize that the prompt already suggests I have my mind made, and it is up to others to change it. You also lack the ability to understand that inherently this argument is a chance for me to try and convince others that disagree with my statement that I am correct.

It's called a debate. I'm sorry that you believe that after stating my point I should agree with every counter argument that comes along. The reality is I argue against their points, and if their argument has merit, it changes my mind on things. If you wanted to actually participate in the discussion, you would have read through what I have said and seen yourself that I am contending to points I may have incorrect. You would also see a bunch of commentators, like yourself, that are just here to self-felicitate, and provide little to nothing in the conversations beyond an attitude, and surface level commentary.