Sherman vs Panther

[Akkapama]

Howdy,

I'm still quite new to this game and so far I've been loving it to bits. But there's one thing that I can't get my mind around, maybe you guys can help me out.

I was in a German armor squad, gunner in a Panther tank. At one point we came across a Sherman 4, about 50 meters away from us and started in a face to face attack, so both shooting each other head-on.

Now, as far as I know, in real life, the Panther's 75mm AP shells should easily be able to penetrate the Sherman's frontal armor and the Panther should have good enough armor to withstand at least some Sherman AP rounds.

But that's not how it went in Hell let loose. We did take some hits without taking damage but after a while the Sherman started eating us up. Meanwhile, I couldn't get ANY hits into the Sherman. All shots either deflected or just didn't seem to do any damage. And I tried to hit it on many different spots. Directly on the front armor, near the tracks, on the turret base, into the driver hatch, etc. Pretty much anything that I could hit on the front of a Sherman, I hit. And it did nothing!

Two questions rise in me after this:

1. Is this accurate? Would it have gone like that in real life?
2. Where should I hit a Sherman next time I get into a face to face encounter?

Thanks in advance!

[mobucks]

1: No
2: You might do some damage with repeated shots to the tracks, otherwise a perfect shot on the turret ring will do the job.

Bottom line: people complained months ago about "balance" so one side got nerfed and the other got buffed. It's a game though so I kinda understand it.

If the third reich complained about balance and got their way we would all be speaking german now =)

[✚Panzerlang✚]

The armour in HLL is pure arcade, so forget about real-life performance data.

[Qored]

https://theline.gg/tankbible has a lot of information on how it works, where to aim etc.

[Famous Bull]

the sherman 75mm at that range would have been ablle to take out the panther.

[JellonaVesa]

Famous Bull eredeti hozzászólása:

the sherman 75mm at that range would have been ablle to take out the panther.

I think the better question is how panther is not able to take down sherman =) not "if the sherman is able" on a frontal encounter that OP mentioned.

[Ol'Jonesy]

That's correct, at that range both tanks would have been capable of penetrating and destroying one another. As others have said, this is not a true to life recreation of Armor battles, and is balanced for fun and not realism.

Fun historical fact, according to data accrued after the war, the average distance for armor on armor battles between January 1944 and the end of the war was 650-800m. So, HLL does allow for realistic armor distances, but those shots are largely uncommon and map dependent.

[Famous Bull]

Ol'Jonesy eredeti hozzászólása:

That's correct, at that range both tanks would have been capable of penetrating and destroying one another. As others have said, this is not a true to life recreation of Armor battles, and is balanced for fun and not realism.

Fun historical fact, according to data accrued after the war, the average distance for armor on armor battles between January 1944 and the end of the war was 650-800m. So, HLL does allow for realistic armor distances, but those shots are largely uncommon and map dependent.

I totally agree, this is authentic not realistic. It's not a mil sim.

And another fact, I'm pretty sure American forces never encountered a Tiger 1 in France anyway. Especially at Normandy. But again, this is for fun

[BUD GRAY]

HLL took some serious liberties in their modeling of the armor. All in the name of balance. The Panther's 7.5 cm KwK 42 L/70 was an outstanding main gun, it could indeed defeat any tank the US had in its inventory throughout the war and at 1000's of yards away. On the flip side, the M4 75mm had about 90mm AP ability, and the Panther D/A had a minimum 90mm of sloped frontal armor (and the Tiger at minimum 110mm).

If you really research the attributes of armor in WW2, you'd see there were major differences between the various tanks. For instance, in HLL the Sherman M4's turret traverses very very slow. The real deal was very quick. FWIW, the Tiger had the slowest turret traverse in WW2. Reload rates for the Sherman's 75mm should be about 4 seconds, and the 76mm about a second more (real firing rates based on US WW2 narratives). The Panther could match the 5 seconds of the 76mm M4, and the Tiger sat at about 7 seconds. Much of the reload rates were based on the size and weight of the round, ammo storage, and crew ergonomics. The T34's reload rates were known to be atrocious, for both the 76mm and 85mm. Interesting reads.

Last but not least, the "jumbo" M4, Panther, and Tiger shouldn't really be in the game. There numbers were far fewer than the basics The regular M4 Sherman and German Panzer IV F2/H (or StuG III) should be the two mainstays in the armor department. Then very little in terms of guessing games or liberty would need to be taken since they were essentially equals (with the German Panzer IV and StuG III have superior AP but the Sherman M4 having enough Ap ability to defeat the German armor thickness under 800 yards).

[Joseph's Piano]

✚Panzerlang✚ eredeti hozzászólása:

The armour in HLL is pure arcade, so forget about real-life performance data.

It is not even arcade - it is abstracted.

There is no armour penetration - a certain number of hits from a particular type of gun on a given target do a pre-defined amount of damage.

See the Tank Bible - https://theline.gg/tankbible

If you want a game that does detailed amour combat this is not the game for you!

Last but not least, the "jumbo" M4, Panther, and Tiger shouldn't really be in the game. There numbers were far fewer than the basics The regular M4 Sherman and German Panzer IV F2/H (or StuG III) should be the two mainstays in the armor department.

Panthers were the 3rd most produced German tank - about 6000 were made, vs Sturmgeschütz III at ~9,400 units, and the Panzer IV at ~ 8,300 units.

About 1300 Tiger 1's were made.

Only 250 Jumbos were ever made - and the 76mm versions were all converted from the original 75mm - so that 250 covers both types. But they were used a lot more to lead attacks once they arrived, so were probably more common than their numbers suggest!

The award for outstanding rarity in real life vs commonality in the game the game is jointly held by the Puma - only 101 were ever made - and the Pz IIL - about 100 of them made too!

[Altair (アルタイル)]

The armour mechanic on this game needs a total rework, imagine a Panther or Tiger shooting the side of a sherman 3-5 shots before killing it or penetrating the frontal successfully and all you see is shells exploding after few rounds and sometimes they can take you out in 2-3 shots.

Imagine if the armour mechanics of HLL is similar or close to PS that would be nice but we can only dream so much,

[✚Panzerlang✚]

Me and my brother gave the new armour update a very fair go in Post Scriptum. They managed to make it just more of the same BS unfortunately.

HLL remains the same, skill-stealing armour mechanics. We who know these tanks inside out know a German 75mm in real life was almost always a one-shot kill on anything not a Jumbo glacis at long range or an Is2.
Sure, people talk about balance, that we can't have loads of Tigers and Panthers with realistic armour. Simple solution for wanting to have the cake and eat it too...reduce the number of Tigers and Panthers and provide P4s and StuGs. They can one-shot kill most allied tanks if the crew is skilful but could also be realistically one-shotted in return. There really is zzero excuse for the arcade tank play.

But the objective is making money from arcade players, that's the only real explanation for HLL's game-mechanics in my opinion. Which means us simmers will remain screwed.

[Joseph's Piano]

We also know there should be eff-all German tanks on the battlefield in the first place......

So it is a tradeoff - if you want to have a reasonable chance to play German tanks you cannot have them with their accurate performance - it would stop the game in its tracks (sic) unless you also give them some serious limitations.

[War Crime Enjoyer]

✚Panzerlang✚ eredeti hozzászólása:

Me and my brother gave the new armour update a very fair go in Post Scriptum. They managed to make it just more of the same BS unfortunately.

HLL remains the same, skill-stealing armour mechanics. We who know these tanks inside out know a German 75mm in real life was almost always a one-shot kill on anything not a Jumbo glacis at long range or an Is2.
Sure, people talk about balance, that we can't have loads of Tigers and Panthers with realistic armour. Simple solution for wanting to have the cake and eat it too...reduce the number of Tigers and Panthers and provide P4s and StuGs. They can one-shot kill most allied tanks if the crew is skilful but could also be realistically one-shotted in return. There really is zzero excuse for the arcade tank play.

But the objective is making money from arcade players, that's the only real explanation for HLL's game-mechanics in my opinion. Which means us simmers will remain screwed.

Holy ♥♥♥♥ it's almost like that's coming in the update next week.

["MONEY" MARGE LARGE & IN CHARGE]

armor mechanics in HLL are glorified rock-paper-scissors

You want believable armor combat look elsewhere.

[steez.]

Tiger vs 76 is annoying as well. Gun takes longer to load, 2 penetrating shots to the side won't destroy but the 76 can pen at every position and destroys a Tiger with 2 shots to the front, even oneshots a Panther while a panther can't pen a 76. 76 is op for sure.