Some major Tank gameplay balance and issues.

[Stryker]

Tanks are straight up garbage now. They are are insanely frustrating, especially on the German side of armor. As someone who has put in over 700 hrs in probably just Tanks before Update 10, I'm just appalled at how terrible the Armor gameplay is now. I was so excited for the armor update, but it's almost unplayable now.

Just some starting observations on the German Tank side:

1. Tiger Tank has a 8 1/2 second reload time. Sherman 76 Jumbo has a 7 second reload time. I just tested this. Explains why every time I'm head to head with a 76, it's usually the 76 that comes out on top. The Tiger must sight, shoot and begun reloading before being hit in order to survive head to head with the 76. Absolutely garbage balance. Seconds matter in those Tank engagements.

2. American AT guns can two shot Tiger's in the front armor. They have a measely 2 second reload time on those AT guns as well. So Tiger's lose this engagement as well unless they get the first shot and don't miss, if you miss or they see you first, they get 3-4 shots to your 1. Just the fact that the AT gun can now penetrate and destroy a Tiger from the front Armor is silly as well. The 57mm would struggle against 120mm front armor of the Tiger, especially at 300-400m. The two shot mechanic is just silly, for 50 munitions you can blow up 600 fuel with ease.

3. Panzer IV struggles just as much. They are useless against the 75 and 76 Variants of the Jumbo, and struggle two fold from everything I mentioned above. Same reload time on the Panzer IV as all the medium and heavy tanks on the American side.

4. Luchs is a death trap, always has been. They can be a lot of fun when uncontested, but they usually are a single shot from any Sherman. Cannot penetrate the M1 Stuart from the front, takes two full magazines of the 20mm to destroy it from the side or rear armor most of the time. Not to mention that 20mm is a beacon for everyone within 500-600m once you start shooting.

Just no comparison whatsoever. The American's have every single advantage in the Armor gameplay currently, and it leads to extremely frustrating Tank gameplay on the German side. I'm not saying you can't do well in German Tanks, but only when the American crews are subpar do the German's have any success. Even battles, the American armor is steamrolling the German's with these large advantages in the anti-tank department. This needs to be addressed.

And just generally, Tank's have taken such a huge step backwards with this new Armor overhaul in Update 10, they just aren't fun anymore.

1. Extremely slow and cumbersome. You hit a small slope or hill, and your entire Tank stops dead, you are forced to downshift completely. There is no traction mechanics, it's the same old ping pong mechanics from 2019 with now slower, plodding Tanks.

2. Small steep hills cause the Tank's to stall and forces the driver to downshift all over to gain momentum again. Especially Heavy Tanks.

3. Some trees, fences, walls can be driven through, other's you can't. It's a memory game of trying to remember what I can and can't drive through, but even worse now. I had it down to a science in Update 1-9, now it's like learning it all over again, but worse. At least before, I knew I couldn't drive through a stone wall or a tree, now I have no idea if I can or can't.

4. Extremely frustrating to drive. Aside from recon vehicles and the Light Tanks, every Tank in this game struggles with the terrain in this game. While I might be repeating the above points I made, I want to reiterate how slow, clumsy and unfilling it is to drive a tank now.

Tank's were supposed to feel powerful when driving, like they could pass through anything, their massive treads cutting up the ground and moving forward. It's nothing like that, they feel like they get stuck everywhere, slow down everywhere, constant down shifting and impossible to maneuver through the slightest deviations of terrain, ditches, craters and narrow roads.

TLDR: I miss the old Tank mechanics. This new system needs a complete overhaul all over again.

[=7CAV=SPC.Henson.K]

Have you tried turning the M4A1 Sherman? Bulldozers are more maneuverable.

[Stryker]

Originally posted by =7CAV=CPL Henson.K:

Have you tried turning the M4A1 Sherman? Bulldozers are more maneuverable.

I go to WW2 Weekend in Reading PA every year. I see several M4A1 Sherman's and other variants as well as other WW2 Vehicles, and talk to the crews. You are being silly.

This is an original Ford V8 engine in this M4A3 Sherman at the Warbirds show in 2006, taking tight turns at high speed.

You can also look up the Sherman Tank trials footage. They didn't get stuck on small hills or trenches either.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__K2BzxR2BY&ab_channel=railnwings

[TWB*Clell_Miller]

The tanks are what they are. The operational dynamics are essentially correct. But the maps upon which they are available is an historic crime. The Luchs was never meant to oppose enemy armor in any size. It was strictly an infantry support platform. It was an armored car with tracks. The grayhound could outgun it. Snap out of it and research.

[Stryker]

Originally posted by TWB*Clell_Miller:

The tanks are what they are. The operational dynamics are essentially correct. But the maps upon which they are available is an historic crime. The Luchs was never meant to oppose enemy armor in any size. It was strictly an infantry support platform. It was an armored car with tracks. The grayhound could outgun it. Snap out of it and research.

No, the operational dynamics are nowhere near correct. Since you are harping on historical accuracy, instead of my intended balance issues, nothing in the Tank gameplay in this game is anywhere near historically accurate. I suggest you "snap out of it and do some research yourself."

Just one example of "operational dynamics" you mention, a Tiger I turret could be turned 360* in about 10sec, if the engine was turated to the max (3000rpm). For lower rpm’s, the turning time was consequently higher. There are no electric turret options in this game. Takes about a minute to turn all the turrets, aside from the Light vehicles.

So since we have established that history has been pretty much thrown out the window in most instances, besides how they look and maybe sound...my original issue was with balance for the sake of gameplay. And actually making the game fun, not frustrating.

If you want to make it historically accurate, I'm fine with that, but make it actually historically accurate then. Tank's shouldn't get bogged down on a little hill or come to a screeching halt when traversing through a crater or hole.

Tank gameplay is considerably worse then it was in earlier updates. Nothing make sense anymore, historically or gameplay wise. The balance is out of whack, the history is out of whack, it's a complete mess.

[tørfisk]

people have been calling for a 76 nerf for a long time - it was even in the changelog for a pte and then was mysteriously scrapped. instead, we get the panther straight up deleted and now the medium 75 is getting a buff too in the next update

[Stryker]

Originally posted by datCookie:

The issue you're going to have discussing a problem with someone like Miller, is that they don't believe that there's almost anything wrong with the game at all, regardless of how well articulated your point is.

"It is what it is", the first statement they used as a counter point. They may as well have said "It's good enough for me so it should be for you too".

I never really discussed any issues with armour, because I don't know enough about armour, either historically or gameplay-wise to make any kind of arguments on the matter.

What I will say though is that the entire armour system has seen not one, but two "overhauls" where the systems were supposed to change drastically to be better than what they were. Almost everything I've read about people posting about armour is negative, with no meaningful changes having been made to reflect the feedback provided on the matter. Whatever changes they HAVE made since the "overhauls", has not made any significant impact as to the issue.

Unfortunately, things like this are exactly the reason why so many of us turned on them, as they failed time and time again to address the issues we brought up constantly. The dev briefs had nothing in them and the gameplay was stale, boring, repetitive and overly simplified compared to what it could and should have been.

I very highly doubt you're going to see the armour system change for the better.

So I don't mind some opposition and discussion on the matter, and tell me what works for you, but the whole "It is what it is" and "Do your research" and completely missing the point of the entire post is frustrating to say the least.

The original Armor overhaul was pushed back originally. They ran out of time and didn't want to implement it. I think all they did was revert coaxial ammo from 100rnds to 250 and made mines no longer one shot tanks. The big Armor update was Update 10, finally. So it was just one big armor update.

You're probably right about the armor system. Took them nearly 2 years to implement their final vision from the original placeholders.

Originally posted by (WTH) tørfisk:

people have been calling for a 76 nerf for a long time - it was even in the changelog for a pte and then was mysteriously scrapped. instead, we get the panther straight up deleted and now the medium 75 is getting a buff too in the next update

Yeah, because noone uses the 75 anymore. Every 5 minutes you can churn out overpowered juggernauts that decimate everything on the field. I mean, I love steamrolling people in the 76. Hell, I can do tons of damage with the Stuart Light Tank as well. As soon as I get on the German side, it's like a totally different universe. I feel like every German tank I get into is going to get 1 or 2 shot. The Tiger was meant to be slow, lumbering and unmaneuverable. Yet it lacks any frontal armor gets picked off by 57mm AT guns and 76's when you try to use it at range. Or you got a Greyhound or Stuart running circles around you because you are too slow. Hoping and praying your infantry will save you.

Maybe it's me. Maybe I got bad luck on the German side, but almost every game I play German's, they are getting wiped out on the Tank gameplay. While I breeze by with 60-70 Infantry kills and several vehicle kills everytime I play the Allies.

[tørfisk]

heavies cost 600 fuel now. you don't always have the privilege of just getting a new 76 so need to make use of the autospawned 75s. at the moment, despite the pz4 being weaker than the panther the german side as an advantage in at least one tank class. after the update that will be lessened too.

[Stryker]

Originally posted by (WTH) tørfisk:

heavies cost 600 fuel now. you don't always have the privilege of just getting a new 76 so need to make use of the autospawned 75s. at the moment, despite the pz4 being weaker than the panther the german side as an advantage in at least one tank class. after the update that will be lessened too.

Yes, I know they are 600. With Encouraged up, it's 90 fuel per min. If I got excess manpower like I had in my last game, I was dropping 76's like they were candy when I was converting to fuel. It's not rare for me to see 2 or 3 76's running around. Specially on Offensive mode.

I only saw that they were smoothing the handling on the M4 Sherman. What else do they plan on buffing on it? IMHO, the handling on ALL the tanks needs to be smoother. They all drive like WW1 Tanks. Hell, even WW1 Tanks could traverse through trenches.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bbTvQOiGiWI&ab_channel=COALMONK5

[tørfisk]

when you're not playing against bots, your tanks get killed. when running 3/4 crews you can't keep churning out 76s so you have to make do with autospawned mediums and lights. see: any organised game

[tørfisk]

Originally posted by datCookie:

Originally posted by (WTH) tørfisk:

when you're not playing against bots, your tanks get killed. when running 3/4 crews you can't keep churning out 76s so you have to make do with autospawned mediums and lights. see: any organised game

In so called "competitive games", this may be the case. But in the vast majority of public matches, nothing is organised enough for these things to work.

using competitive games as an extreme example... even in public matches with multiple tank crews, the situation remains the same. i see many good tank crews from both clans and normal players in regular matches. not very game is a shooting gallery vs simple AI

[Stryker]

Originally posted by (WTH) tørfisk:

when you're not playing against bots, your tanks get killed. when running 3/4 crews you can't keep churning out 76s so you have to make do with autospawned mediums and lights. see: any organised game

90% of this game is public matches. You can't compare your WTH tournaments and scrims to public matches. As I said, I just played several games where I was handing out 76 Shermans on command, and even dropping them when noone was asking for them.

As I stated above, they tend to do better then German tank crews because of their advantages as well, and die less. At least in my experience. I mean, you admitted yourself they need a nerf.

[Mexicutioner]

So basically your upset because German tanks arent as OP anymore?

[Stryker]

Originally posted by Mexicutioner:

So basically your upset because German tanks arent as OP anymore?

Aside from Update 2, where the Tiger I was introduced, the German's have never had Armor superiority in this game. Even when the Tiger I was introduced, the Allies AT had 4 Rockets, and they could reload while sprinting, which was always a problem for Tiger's and Panthers. 3 Updates later, the 76 Jumbo was introduced, and American's have had armor superiority ever since.

So basically what you are saying is, you want the Allies to continue to be dominate in the Armor game, and don't want to see any changes?

Basically you'd be upset if they balanced the game and try to bring the German armor up to par with the Allies?

Originally posted by (WTH) tørfisk:

using competitive games as an extreme example... even in public matches with multiple tank crews, the situation remains the same. i see many good tank crews from both clans and normal players in regular matches. not very game is a shooting gallery vs simple AI

I watched two competitive matches yesterday between Greyhounds and 82AD(Which was live) and 23rd Inf vs 1AD. Both Allied wins, both Allied teams had multiple 76 Sherman's on the field at the end of the game. Greyhounds had 3 or 4 76 Sherman's on St Mere Eglise in the final moments of the game.

I know some of the guys in these clans and some of them agree with me as well.

Maybe I'm coming off as whiny, so be it. My honest to god opinion is, there needs to be some more balance changes. I seem to remember a year ago, there was a big stink in the competitive match community that Allies were winning 9 out of every 10 games? Or something like 70-80% of the matches? I can't remember the exact number, but it was skewed for the Allies pretty badly.

[mobucks]

If it were up to me, Shermans cheap on fuel, so more of them, but can't win vs 88m head to head. That's how it was for most of this game's development. Then people got upset that Germany had ONE advantage and wanted it "balanced" again. The balance should have come from the amount of tanks possibly fielded, not penetration of armor.
I can't think of a single weapon Germany has a clear advantage over USA in HLL other than the MG42. Meanwhile USA is all at least semi auto, more AT rounds (why?) and a light tank that can actually kill other tanks... AND a Sherman 76mm variant that was barely used in WWII.

"I don't know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everybody."

[Stryker]

Originally posted by mobucks:

If it were up to me, Shermans cheap on fuel, so more of them, but can't win vs 88m head to head. That's how it was for most of this game's development. Then people got upset that Germany had ONE advantage and wanted it "balanced" again. The balance should have come from the amount of tanks possibly fielded, not penetration of armor.
I can't think of a single weapon Germany has a clear advantage over USA in HLL other than the MG42. Meanwhile USA is all at least semi auto, more AT rounds (why?) and a light tank that can actually kill other tanks... AND a Sherman 76mm variant that was barely used in WWII.

"I don't know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everybody."

That's how it was in Alpha and early access. The Allies started with 4 Tanks (3 M4 Sherman's and a Stuart) and the German's started with two Panther's and a Luchs. It was the right direction imho. More Tanks for the Allies vs slightly superior Armor with the Panther's. Then the Tiger came out in Update 2. The Allies still had plenty to fight the Tiger with, it was super weak against Bazooka's to the rear, and the Allies had 4 rockets back then, not to mention they could be killed with one mine. In no way did the Tiger dominate most of this game's development. It was only the top tank for 3 updates. Update 5 brought the Sherman 76 and 75 Jumbo Variant, and since then, it has reigned supreme.

There have been some checks and balances, like mines no longer one shotting Tanks and Allied AT losing it's 4 rockets and only getting 2, but most of the changes have benefited all Tanks, with the 76 still leagues over the Tiger. The 76 is faster, more maneuverable, shorter reload time and generally seems to handle better.

I dominate every game I'm in a 76 Jumbo just about. The only thing that poses a huge threat these days is the AT guns. They are really hard to target sometimes and their super fast reload speed makes them deadly. When I see a Tiger or a Panzer IV though, I barely worry.

When I get in a Tiger, it's frustrating trying to fight against the AT superiority the Allies have currently. The 76 and AT guns are of course deadly, on top of Greyhounds which can knock out a Tiger's engine in 2 shots and then destroy it. The Panzer IV is nice against the M4 Sherman, but after the 15 min mark, you never see M4 Sherman's, all you see are Jumbo's and the occasional Greyhound or Stuart.

There definitely should be a limit on how many heavy tanks can be on the field. One at a time. When the Allies get 3 or 4 Jumbo's on the field, it's almost impossible to counter. Let the rest of the Tank gameplay come down to Medium and Light Tanks and Recon vehicles. Toughen up the Heavy Tanks, make them more menacing but not too OP, so they actually feel terrifying when they are finally out.