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I'm confused to what facts I'm supposed to be "checking:"
Shotguns actually had decent range and ROF? Checks out.
A Shotgun can and should beat a StG44 or MP40 at close range, and compete at medium range? Checks out.
Shotguns are not the wildly inaccurate, sluggish beasts that most people seem to think they are? Checks out.
I don't think Shotguns will singlehandedly rebalance the game, but if done correctly it will be a step in the right direction? Checks out.
"German's fearing them in ww1 that was more of a 'hey look at this over exaggerated awfulness of shotguns and ignore our excessive use of gas.'"
A single weapon used predominantly in World War I and with a limited deployment in World War II was so effective and so terrifying that Germany lodged a diplomatic protest against its use by American forces. It wasn’t the flamethrower or the machine gun. It was shotguns, especially the Winchester Models 1897 and 1912.
https://www.wearethemighty.com/articles/this-awesome-trench-gun-terrified-germans-in-both-world-wars/
The Model 97 held six rounds of 00 buckshot, each shell of which held nine pellets. A trained soldier slamfiring could fire all six rounds, 54 total lead pellets, in approximately two seconds. At the close ranges in many World War I trenches, the effect was devastating.
Shotgunners would rapidly clear German trenches, cutting away the defenders. The tactic was so effective that Model 97s picked up the nicknames “trench brooms” and “trench sweepers.”
The German government lobbed an official protest against the weapon, saying that the weapon inflicted unnecessary cruelty. America responded that the claim was hollow coming from the nation that introduced chemical weapons and flamethrowers into warfare.
There are even reports that American soldiers skilled in skeet shooting were placed along the front trenches to shoot enemy hand grenades from the air, deflecting or destroying the devices before they could hurt American troops.
The Winchester Model 97 and Model 1912 would go on to serve similar functions in World War II, again clearing German defenders from trenches and bunkers as well as operating in the Pacific. The two Winchester shotguns were deployed to Korea and Vietnam, though the U.S. was slowly transitioning to newer shotguns by that point.
You may want to check YOUR facts, however. Shotguns were not nearly as "niche" as you think they were; as evidenced by their deployed on both fronts in WWII, and use in Vietnam.
https://youtu.be/oROttbSkayU 1897
https://youtu.be/OB8__9I-NNk Model 10
https://www.amazon.com/U-S-Small-Arms-World-War/dp/1931464863 Book to educate yourself.
Happy Hunting :)
So how about this. Instead of you linking me 2 hours and 30 minutes worth of video and arrogantly suggesting I'm naive and telling me to "educate" myself (and calling the source I provided "a boomer" like that is a bad thing when it comes to talking about guns)....
I'm just going to provide overwhelming evidence, so that everyone else reading this thread knows that posting random YouTube videos and attacking people over history and gun use is pathetic.
https://taskandpurpose.com/military-tech/military-shotguns-history/
Why The US Military Still Loves Shotguns In A Firefight
(Note: firefight, not guarding prisoners)
Originally designed as hunting weapons, many armies turn to shotguns for a variety of roles, including close combat and obstacle breaching. Although shotguns are too specialized to replace battle and assault rifles in infantry units, their utility will keep them in arsenals worldwide for the foreseeable future.
The 'Trench Gun' in World War I
by BRUCE N. CANFIELD, FIELD EDITOR NRA
(National Rifle Association, this man knows more about guns than you do "JohnnyBanana" -- he also wrote the book you linked on Amazon which you suggested I read: https://www.amazon.com/U-S-Small-Arms-World-War/dp/1931464863)
https://www.americanrifleman.org/content/the-trench-gun-in-world-war-i/
Despite the well-known effectiveness of shotguns for certain situations, the first procurement of shotguns specifically for combat use by the U.S. military did not occur until the dawn of the 20th century. Circa 1900, the U.S. Army purchased an estimated 200 Winchester Model of 1897 slide- action repeating shotguns for use in the on-going “pacification” campaigns in the Philippine Islands following the Spanish-American War of 1898.
There was a clear need for an arm to help battle the fierce Moro tribesmen, who were exacting a deadly toll on American troops in close-quarters combat. It was recognized that a short-barreled, 12-ga. shotgun loaded with 00 buckshot was the most formidable tool available for such applications. These “sawed off” shotguns soon proved their mettle and were used with notable effectiveness in the Philippines.
When the United States entered World War I in the spring of 1917, General John Pershing and the U.S. Army General Staff were determined not to repeat the same mistakes that were made by both sides during the previous three years of the war. As stated in an American Rifleman article published after the war:
“When the A.E.F. began to take over portions of the front lines it brought with it General Pershing’s predetermined decision to break up the enemy’s use of its trenches as take-off points for such assaults, to destroy such attacking ‘shock troops’ as they came on, and so to compel the open-ground warfare for which Europeans had little liking but which was wholly in the character of the American spirit and in which it was foreseen the latter would give an extremely effective account of themselves.”
The new tactics that were to be employed by the American “Doughboys” required new arms. Many of the senior officers of the American Expeditionary Force (AEF), including Gen. Pershing, had previously served in the Philippines and had first-hand knowledge of the effectiveness of the shotgun. It was soon recognized that they possessed much potential for both offensive and defensive trench warfare.
The U.S. Army Ordnance Department was ordered to evaluate which shotgun would best suit the needs of the American troops deploying to France. The consensus was that the Winchester Model 1897 would be the logical choice. The Model 1897, later designated the “M97,” was a reliable gun that had been around for some 20 years and had acquitted itself well in the Philippines.
(As we can read, the USA army officially endorsed use of the M97 shotgun. This isn't some urban legend floating around. Your talk of shotgun use being undocumented or anecdotal is, frankly, ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥.)
The Trouble with Trench Guns
(Also by the NRA, this article answers the important question of why there are no pictures of "Doughboys" with shotguns.)
https://www.americanrifleman.org/content/the-trouble-with-trench-guns/
Clearly, the trench guns had gotten the Germans attention. The Acting Judge Advocate General of the U.S. Army, Brig. Gen. Samuel T. Ansell, addressed the ridiculous German protest with a memorandum on Sept. 26, 1918. Within his statement, he completely debunked the German protest in both legal and ballistic terms, and concluded that the German gripes were “without legal merit.” The U.S. government also responded, in no uncertain terms, to the German threat to execute Americans captured with a shotgun or buckshot ammunition:
“The Government of the United States notes the threat of the German Government to execute every prisoner of war found to have in his possession shotguns or shotgun ammunition. Inasmuch as the weapon is lawful and may be rightfully used, its use will not be abandoned by the American Army.
“If the German Government should carry out its threat in a single instance, it will be the right and duty of the United States to make such reprisals as will best protect the American forces, and notice is hereby given of the intention of the United States to make such reprisals.”
Uncle Sam doesn’t take kindly to threats, and the Germans were well advised not to harm those few Americans they managed to take as prisoners. However, the German protest presented some major issues for Gen. Pershing and the troops of the AEF, as the Kaiser’s propaganda machine cranked up the volume. American troops were described as “undisciplined and barbaric,” and “incapable of using proper rifles.” It might have been chalked up to sour grapes and name-calling, but there were some other potentially serious consequences for American troops stemming from the German shotgun protest.
At that time, America was still considered a junior partner among the Allies. British and French commanders were hoping to use American troops as cannon-fodder for the autumn offensive against the Hindenburg Line. General Pershing was adamant in his desire that American troops would remain under American command. A public relations problem like the trouble over trench guns might have given French and British leaders enough leverage to usurp control of American troops. It seems apparent that Gen. Pershing wasn’t taking any chances.
I put two and two together and came up with a researcher’s opinion on why no official photographs can be found of Doughboys carrying trench guns in the World War I. I believe that AEF command ordered that photos of trench guns in combat be censored, and ultimately eliminated. This effort would make certain that the press could not accidentally print any “embarrassing” images of the Doughboys equipped with shotguns. The trench guns would remain in France and continue to do their deadly, effective work, but there would simply be no photographs allowed to document it.
There is also some anecdotal evidence of shotgun censorship: after my book “The Yanks Are Coming” was published, I had a conversation with Bob Landies (the founder of Ohio Ordnance Works) about the topic. He remembered his boyhood conversations with an old Army Ordnance sergeant, a man who had served in France during World War I. Bob met him as a youngster in the 1960s and recalled that the former Doughboy stated: “We were ordered that there were to be no pictures taken of trench guns.” It certainly makes sense to me.
Wikipedia, bucko
The Model 1897 was issued to American soldiers during the Philippine–American War of 1899. This first major use of issued shotguns by the United States military involved 200 weapons procured and sent to the Philippines in 1900. They were employed in countering Moro tribesmen who engaged the Americans in close-quarter combat using knives and swords.
During the Punitive Expedition in Mexico, some US soldiers were also equipped with M97s. Already popular before World War I, sales of the Model 1897 picked up after the war broke. This was because many were produced to meet the demands of the military. When the United States entered World War I, there was a need for more service weapons to be issued to the troops. It became clear to the United States just how brutal trench warfare was, and how great the need was for a large amount of close-range firepower while fighting in a trench, after they had observed the war for the first three years. The Model 1897 Trench grade was an evolution of this idea. The pre-existing Winchester Model 1897 was modified by adding a perforated steel heat shield over the barrel which kept the soldier's hands off a hot barrel, and an adapter with bayonet lug for affixing an M1917 bayonet.
Model 1897 adapter that allowed the attachment of the M1917 bayonet
This model was ideal for close combat and was efficient in trench warfare due to its 20-inch cylinder bore barrel. Buckshot ammunition was issued with the trench grade during the war. Each round of this ammunition contained nine 00 (.33-caliber) buckshot pellets. This gave considerable firepower to the individual soldier by each round that was fired. This shorter barrel and large amount of firepower is what made this grade ideal for trench warfare.
It has been said that American soldiers who were skilled at trap shooting were armed with these guns and stationed where they could fire at enemy hand grenades in midair.[3]
Unlike most modern pump-action shotguns, the Winchester Model 1897 (versions of which were type classified as the Model 97 or M97 for short) fired each time the action closed with the trigger depressed (that is, it lacks a trigger disconnector). Coupled with its five-shot capacity, this made it effective for close combat, such that troops referred to it as a "trench sweeper". This characteristic allowed troops to fire the whole magazine with great speed. The Model 1897 was so effective, and feared, that the German government protested (in vain) to have it outlawed in combat. The Model 1897 was used again in World War II by the United States Army and Marine Corps, where it was used alongside the similarly militarized version of the hammerless Model 1912. Some were still in service during the Korean War and the Vietnam War.
Other military uses of the shotgun included "the execution of security/interior guard operations, rear area security operations, guarding prisoners of war, raids, ambushes, military operations in urban terrain, and selected special operations". Despite protesting them, Germans did not listen to Ludendorff and decided to use and unofficially adopt the M1897 for their own use with modifications and named it "trench mauser" and mainly place them with stormtroopers.
The Trench Gun of WW1 – Devastating Firepower At Close Range – The Famous Model 1897 Shotgun
https://www.warhistoryonline.com/guns/trench-broom-famous-model-1897-shotgun.html#:~:text=The%20Trench%20Gun%2C%20the%20Winchester,was%20an%20immensely%20popular%20shotgun.&text=Carrying%20six%20shells%2C%20the%20M1897,Germans%20were%20dismayed%20by%20it.
The Trench Gun, the Winchester Model 1897, was an immensely popular shotgun. Between 1897 and 1956 more than a million were produced by Winchester Repeating Arms.
(This article includes a video of a man slam-firing the same model of shotgun used in WWI. I suggest watching the 30 second video, since you wanted me to watch 2 hours and 30 minutes of video.)
Over There:
Celebrating the One Hundredth Anniversary of First Army
(Note: PDF format)
https://history.army.mil/html/bookshelves/resmat/wwi/historical_resources/default/sec09/Over_There/Over_There_07.pdf
The U.S. was the only major nation to employ the use of shotguns. Originally, shotguns were intended to deflect grenades from the
trenches and as an effective weapon to sweep a narrow trench of enemy combatants. When the First Army began to take over portions
of the front lines it brought with it General Pershing's pre-determined decision to break up the enemy's use of its trenches as take-off
points for assaults, to destroy attacking shock troops as they charged, and to compel the open-ground warfare for which was wholly in the
character of the American spirit (but not to Europeans’ liking).16 Once the Americans began employing the trench shotgun, as it was now
called, it quickly gained favor among the Soldiers using it. At the same time the Germans objected to the use of the shotgun decrying it as
too brutal of a weapon. Beginning in July 1918, the Germans captured a few Americans armed with trench shotguns and, after a time, the
issue became an international controversy. On 19 September 1918, the U.S. Secretary of State received the following protest by cablegram
from the government of Germany: “The German Government protests against the use of shotguns by the American Army and calls attention to the fact
that according to the law of war, every U.S. prisoner of war found to have in his possession such guns or ammunition belonging thereto forfeits his life. This protest
is based upon article 23(e) of the Hague convention respecting the laws and customs of war on land. Reply by cable is required before October 1, 1918.”
The Acting Judge Advocate General of the U.S. Army, Brig. Gen. Samuel T. Ansell, addressed the German protest with a memorandum
on Sept. 26, 1918, “The Government of the United States notes the threat of the German Government to execute every prisoner of war found to have in his
possession shotguns or shotgun ammunition. Inasmuch as the weapon is lawful and may be rightfully used, its use will not be abandoned by the American Army.
If the German Government should carry out its threat in a single instance, it will be the right and duty of the United States to make such reprisals as will best
protect the American forces, and notice is hereby given of the intention of the United States to make such reprisals.”18 Unofficially these claims were quickly
compared to the German invention and use of the flamethrower and poison gas. The most common shotgun model was the M1897
Winchester shotgun, officially known as the Model of 1917 Trench Shotgun. Other versions included the Remington Model 12 shotgun
and other “off the shelf” shotguns converted for use in the war. The typical conversions included a shortened barrel, a heat shield cover
over the barrel and the addition of a bayonet mount. The following is an account of Americans using the trench shotgun to great effect,
"On 27 September 1918, Sergeant Fred Lloyd, using a Model 97, advanced alone into a German-held village and began methodically clearing it, pumping and
firing the shotgun as he moved. He finally collapsed with exhaustion after routing thirty German soldiers."
In conclusion, when the United States entered the war it scrambled to prepare its Soldiers to enter combat in the trenches of Europe. All
of the weapons cited here were quality weapons and earned the respect of the Soldiers who used them, helping to create a level playing
field for the Soldiers of First Army to fight German forces. These weapons also demonstrate the ingenuity of the American Army to
quickly and effectively adapt from a pre-war isolationist standing to arming and training close to four million Soldiers within almost a year.
The Trench Shotguns of WWI Were Uniquely American
https://sofrep.com/news/the-trench-shotguns-of-wwi-were-uniquely-american/
No American soldiers were executed for possessing either a shotgun or shotgun ammunition.
However, the American Expeditionary Force censored photos of American Doughboys carrying trench shotguns to not inflame the situation.
(The irony of you telling me to educate myself, yet you not knowing why there are no images of American troops with shotguns in WWI, is not lost on me.)
Happy hunting, laddie :)
I highly doubt you have "The Trench Gun" book so I doubt you can tell me anything inside of it. You just linked a book because I linked a book and you think it will help your case (fun fact the link did work lol).
I am not saying that shotguns where unheard of (they where definitely uncommon) or anecdotal dips#$% I am saying they are not the magic wonder weapon you think they are. If you learn to think for yourself and do your own research you will find hardly any reports from ww1 about shotguns being used in trench raids, and they only really pop up in the Pacific because the terrain suited the Marines.
Did you even read the task and purpose article lol? "Shotguns are not terribly suited to combat: shotgun shot has a maximum effective range of thirty yards, at which point velocity and predictable shot groupings quickly decline. Solid slugs are useful out to a maximum of one hundred yards. As a result, shotguns are ineffective during combat in rolling terrain, with sight lines out to four hundred yards or more." here is a quote from it... weird.
"Military shotgun use during World War II was rare, mostly limited to U.S. forces fighting in the Pacific against Japanese bunkers and earthen fortifications." another quote from that article.....
" Shotguns were issued to special operations forces, ship crews, boarding parties, and U.S. Marine Corps Fleet Anti-terrorism Security Teams. The U.S. Army’s Delta Force fielded a cut-down pump action shotgun fitted underneath the barrel of an M16 pattern rifle. Nicknamed “the Masterkey” , the shotgun was used as a breaching tool to fire solid slugs point-blank against door locks." once again the points I have been saying, special combat situations, security details, and breaching.
" As limited as the shotgun is, it can do things traditional military firearms cannot. The military shotgun can bust doors, destroy obstacles, cow prisoners of war, deploy tear gas, and unleash a devastating pattern of lead shot with a single pull of the trigger. Until the day these missions go away, shotguns are here to stay." literally everything I have been saying. You should probably read the articles you post when trying to fact check someone.
Watch the C&Rseanl videos, they are good information that really clarify the shotguns strength's and weakness at least in the great war. Shotguns get A LOT of hype because they are super cool but again they are a very niche weapon to have. As stated so by, guess who? Bruce Canfield page 404 of "U.S. Small Arms of WW2" "The shotgun utilized for combat purposes were, in a sense "niche". They are a good niche weapon to have which is why they have stuck around for so long. I am not denying the shotguns use's at all. Just not buying into the mythos around them. There is a lot of myth's around US small arms of all types (M1 Ping, 1911 stopping power, .30 carbine wimpy, etc) Do some reading other than click baity internet articles regurgitating the same nonsense bro. It will help you. Lastly the idea of shooting potato mashers like they are skeet is disproved in the C&Rsenal video and Canfields book. You are probably going to be petty and spam a bunch more nonsense and NOT watch C&Rsenal (they include references) for fear that you may be wrong. Keep living in your fantasy land I guess brotato chip lol
I've owned and shot several 12ga pumps, even slam firing them "which is absurd considering the recoil" there's not a chance in hell you'd shoot 6 rounds in 2 seconds.
I'm a big guy and shooting a 12 is no joke, especially with buck. Wherever you got that article from, I'd take it with a gain of salt.
You keep making yourself look bad.
Calling a variety of sources "essentially the same" is absurd and just a bad attempt to attack the sources instead of engaging what the sources are saying. And there are a lot of credible sources saying the same damn thing over and over, so I can see why you're intimidated.
You also threw reading comprehension out the window. Saying Your own "sources" contradict themselves with one saying shotguns where implemented to stop wild Moro's from gutting GI's to the other saying there where used to shoot grenades (LMFAO okay) and raid trenches. is remarkably stupid, because there is no contradiction there. Every source agreed that shotguns were introduced to defend against "wild Moro's from gutting GIs" and, learning from that experience of being very successful at preventing being gutted, were ordered for use in WWI.
How you thought there was some kind of contradiction there is, frankly, absurd. What little faith I had in your opinion is shaken. You obviously aren't giving the text in front of your face enough attention to even pretend you've read it, so I'll leave it to the readers so draw their own conclusions about you and your "argument."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3RjP2uYZdNA&t=18s&ab_channel=JoelG.
Shot #1 is taken at 0:15.
Shots #2-#7 are taken from 0:16 - 0:17. Six shots in approximately 1.75ish seconds.
So yeah, I mean the article and the casual video of some rando shooting the same ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ WWI gun full slamfire, no problem with recoil.
I just don't understand people on forums sometimes.
con·tra·dic·tion
/ˌkäntrəˈdikSH(ə)n/
Learn to pronounce
noun
a combination of statements, ideas, or features of a situation that are opposed to one another.
Here is the definition so you now know.
That is a text book example of a contradicted. Your attacks calling me stupid because you posted some weak sources is laughable. Sorry I trust credible sources and not click bait articles based off games or the NRA which is a joke of an organization that caters to a specific crowd. I remember when I was fresh in the military surplus game and believed everything I read on the internet that made me happy. When I stated "spamming the same nonsense" I was referring to the same generic and generalized articles that you posted. They do not have the credibility as more in-depth sources are, again are more so click bait to cater to a specific crowd. Canfield has credibility, Othias has credibility, Ian has credibility, the NRA and task and purpose are generalized organization that try and cater to a wide audience and do not have the time to research points fully. Most of the points in those articles have been debunked by individuals with far more credibility. I already proved you didn't even read the task and purpose article because it proved all my points.
The fact you are now making a weak attempt at attacking my reading comprehension just shows you have nothing to back up your argument anymore. Watch Forgotten Weapons, C&Rsenal or read Canfields books if you want to learn something. The fact that you refuse to just shows you want your opinion to be right instead of you being properly informed.
Are you really this dense?
Shotguns were introduced in warfare IN GENERAL against the "Moro's"
Shotguns began their induction into WWI to clear trenches and skeet shoot.
There isn't a contradiction present. There is only you, desperate to make a point where there is none.
Canfield has credibility
His article is one of the many I provided that prove you wrong.
Your statement has no relevance - they're already adding shotguns to America in HLL.