Myth about Denuvo

[Khorneflakes]

Companies think that adding extreme anti piracy options like this helps them get more money.

I want to buy this game but I won't do it because I don't like forced third party programms.

So, everyone do as they like, I'm not blaming anyone for disliking Denuvo or being neutral.

But remember this, pirate will never buy game, even if pirated version is unavailable, so in reality, companies gain nothing by adding this anti piracy measures, the only thing they get is losing some potential buyers.

[Xengre]

DRM is hardly an "extreme" anti-piracy option. It is a pretty typical solution and usually invisible to the end user. If you weren't told the game had it you would neither care nor know most of the time, nearly 100% of the time in fact.

I'm also confused why you are complaining about it for this game when, as you can clearly see, it is not causing players issues with this game, yet you do not own the game, yourself.

Denuvo is not a 3rd party program, as it is baked into the code. DRM is fine as long as it works properly and does not cause issues, which Denuvo has historically not caused issues. I believe, aside from maybe one case ever, it has always been proven it wasn't Denuvo causing issues in any case it was blamed including Resident Evil Village (it was Capcom's custom DRM, not Denuvo, that caused the issue).

Anti-piracy methods are kind of important due to the overwhelming piracy rates on PC, and to an extent even other platforms. Just so you are aware PC games often see piracy rates of 94-97% of a given game's consumers. That means only an average of 3-6% of the game's players actually legally own the game and paid. Even a 1-2% increase in legal purchases would be a massive profit increase.

It always amuses me the hate DRM gets while gamers fail to typically provide a legitimate actual negative problem it has caused. No, bad DRM like in Spores does not count. They're bad. Denuvo is one of the better ones, and while I'm sure it is not perfect it is fairly good.

[Khorneflakes]

Originally posted by Xengre:

DRM is hardly an "extreme" anti-piracy option. It is a pretty typical solution and usually invisible to the end user. If you weren't told the game had it you would neither care nor know most of the time, nearly 100% of the time in fact.

I'm also confused why you are complaining about it for this game when, as you can clearly see, it is not causing players issues with this game, yet you do not own the game, yourself.

Denuvo is not a 3rd party program, as it is baked into the code. DRM is fine as long as it works properly and does not cause issues, which Denuvo has historically not caused issues. I believe, aside from maybe one case ever, it has always been proven it wasn't Denuvo causing issues in any case it was blamed including Resident Evil Village (it was Capcom's custom DRM, not Denuvo, that caused the issue).

Anti-piracy methods are kind of important due to the overwhelming piracy rates on PC, and to an extent even other platforms. Just so you are aware PC games often see piracy rates of 94-97% of a given game's consumers. That means only an average of 3-6% of the game's players actually legally own the game and paid. Even a 1-2% increase in legal purchases would be a massive profit increase.

It always amuses me the hate DRM gets while gamers fail to typically provide a legitimate actual negative problem it has caused. No, bad DRM like in Spores does not count. They're bad. Denuvo is one of the better ones, and while I'm sure it is not perfect it is fairly good.

It is extreme anti piracy method, because percent of games that uses Denuvo are extemely small compared to games that does not use it.

I never said that I dislike Denuvo for performance issues. I dislike idea of third party program that runs quietly in my PC.

Many successful games which does not use it doing great, like God of War, Cyberpunk 2077, and many others. That is a fact that in reality, this system is not needed.

You can like it or not, but Denuvo is third party program, as stated in EULA:
24. THIRD PARTY SOFTWARE.
a) Denuvo. This Game is protected by Denuvo Anti-Tamper technology (“Anti-Tamper Technology”). By installing this Game, you acknowledge and consent that certain files of the Anti-Tamper Technology may remain even after the Game is uninstalled from your computer. For more information, please visit Denuvo’s website.

I write my opinion here to share my thoughts, not to amuse you.
Peace.

[Xengre]

Originally posted by Khorneflakes:

It is extreme anti piracy method, because percent of games that uses Denuvo are extemely small compared to games that does not use it.

Many other games use other DRMs and other anti-piracy measures. Steam store is a soft DRM. Read Dead Redemption 2 used its own custom DRM. Capcom's Resident Evil VIllage used Denuvo plus their own custom DRM combined (poorly I might add lol). Some games use internet required anti-piracy measures. Etc.

Originally posted by Khorneflakes:

I never said that I dislike Denuvo for performance issues. I dislike idea of third party program that runs quietly in my PC.

What about Steam Store running in background or Steamworks? Steam Community? What about Riot Vanguard for League of Legends and Valorant. How about easy-cheat and other anti cheating background processes? Any mods you have installed or utility apps like DS4Windows that tend to run silently in the background and hook up with those games? Battle.net? Etc. I don't really see the issue, but feel free to elaborate.

Originally posted by Khorneflakes:

Many successful games which does not use it doing great, like God of War, Cyberpunk 2077, and many others. That is a fact that in reality, this system is not needed.

God of War Ragnarok is not a good example, at least not yet... They've only got reported about 1m sales which is solid for a port but not all that groundbreaking. We will see how it does in the long run, but an initial first month 1m sales suggests it will not see much more after. In addition, the game already has over 19m sales on PS4 and is an older port that likely has reasonably low opportunity costs so even only a few million sales is already excellent, but nothing noteworthy and less of a piracy concern. It is difficult to figure out the impact for this game, but it isn't good evidence.

Cyberpunk 2077 is widely regarded as the greatest video game scam in history and it still sold well because sometimes consumers are really dumb and will eat up anything, regardless of quality and extremely negative reception, as long it it fills their desired content niche (see oddly limited zombie genre with frequent low quality content despite common misconception of abundance).

Originally posted by Khorneflakes:

You can like it or not, but Denuvo is third party program, as stated in EULA:
24. THIRD PARTY SOFTWARE.
a) Denuvo. This Game is protected by Denuvo Anti-Tamper technology (“Anti-Tamper Technology”). By installing this Game, you acknowledge and consent that certain files of the Anti-Tamper Technology may remain even after the Game is uninstalled from your computer. For more information, please visit Denuvo’s website.

I write my opinion here to share my thoughts, not to amuse you.
Peace.

You wrote your thoughts, but you did not actually explain why you dislike it as I pointed out above. If it is purely because of a background process and/or anti-piracy measure of any type you wont like most video games on PC.

[nobalkain]

Denuvo is always cracked, some cases the same day if not even sooner, and thus stops zero Piracy. All it does it cause resources for paying Customers to be used for no reason. Its useless and cost Game Companies more Money that could be spent on the Game itself.

[Xengre]

Originally posted by nobalkain:

Denuvo is always cracked, some cases the same day if not even sooner, and thus stops zero Piracy. All it does it cause resources for paying Customers to be used for no reason. Its useless and cost Game Companies more Money that could be spent on the Game itself.

This isn't right. It is true it is in many cases cracked very early, even same day as release, but this is not always. They had a really bad streak but in the past year or two they've done much better with many games lasting weeks to many months. It has been so rough for pirate cracking groups many have actually quit the cracking scene, apparently. Further, Denuvo has been taking legal action and police raids have occurred when major cracking groups have been caught breaching their DRM protections in recent years.

Is it perfect? No, it doesn't protect as well as it ideally should for every game but there are cases it does. It also can influence pre-orders if it is heard it will have Denuvo the odds someone might buy it due to DRM and having to wait on a crack can increase, even if only a bit depending on the game in question.

DRM that can and does, albeit not always, protect game sales with virtually no negative is an obvious choice. It costs next to nothing at all, and the extra money is so minor it would not be spent to better the games in question. That is misleading information you're giving. As for resources, that 2 to maybe 6% (if poorly implemented) performance hit costing you that 1 frame will not break your performance. If 1 FPS makes or breaks your ability to play the game Denuvo is not the problem. Your potato is.

[Sabaithal]

Pirates do buy games all the time. Many of us anyway. I generally try a game out for a while, more than 2 hours because with some games you need more than that. If I really like I game I sure as hell buy it.

Then I usually just go back to using the pirated version because it runs better somehow. But I still paid money for the game so whatever.

And DRM never stops anything, yes.

[Xengre]

Originally posted by Sabaithal:

Pirates do buy games all the time. Many of us anyway. I generally try a game out for a while, more than 2 hours because with some games you need more than that. If I really like I game I sure as hell buy it.

Then I usually just go back to using the pirated version because it runs better somehow. But I still paid money for the game so whatever.

And DRM never stops anything, yes.

I disagree with the last line and FFXV/Resident Evil 7/Red Dead Redemption 2, etc. updates/DLC have proven otherwise, but obviously DRM is not as affected on the whole as it should be.

That said, it raises an interesting point of whether developers should be putting more effort into demos like in the past so people can properly trial their games and if that would help them fight piracy or just, in general, boost overall sales with an informed decision. I recall back in the PS1/PS2 era it was demos that were most prominent in getting me to buy games, more than any other marketing.

[nobalkain]

Originally posted by Xengre:

Originally posted by nobalkain:

Denuvo is always cracked, some cases the same day if not even sooner, and thus stops zero Piracy. All it does it cause resources for paying Customers to be used for no reason. Its useless and cost Game Companies more Money that could be spent on the Game itself.

This isn't right. It is true it is in many cases cracked very early, even same day as release, but this is not always. They had a really bad streak but in the past year or two they've done much better with many games lasting weeks to many months. It has been so rough for pirate cracking groups many have actually quit the cracking scene, apparently. Further, Denuvo has been taking legal action and police raids have occurred when major cracking groups have been caught breaching their DRM protections in recent years.

Is it perfect? No, it doesn't protect as well as it ideally should for every game but there are cases it does. It also can influence pre-orders if it is heard it will have Denuvo the odds someone might buy it due to DRM and having to wait on a crack can increase, even if only a bit depending on the game in question.

DRM that can and does, albeit not always, protect game sales with virtually no negative is an obvious choice. It costs next to nothing at all, and the extra money is so minor it would not be spent to better the games in question. That is misleading information you're giving. As for resources, that 2 to maybe 6% (if poorly implemented) performance hit costing you that 1 frame will not break your performance. If 1 FPS makes or breaks your ability to play the game Denuvo is not the problem. Your potato is.

If that is the case then show me some proof. All the games that people are able to download for free is all the proof I need that your claims are false, but hey if you have any saying other wise I will read it.

[lukaself]

This does not show it protects the sales, it shows that games using Denuvo are harder to obtain illegitimately than most games, which is true. There is no proof of the existence of a causal link between the strength of a DRM and sales though. Piracy is mostly driven by ideological, systemic or socio-economic factors which can't be converted into sales by DRM, no matter how strong it is.

On the other hand, sales have been causally linked with the quality, affordability and availability of a product which is where most publishers and developers chose to direct their efforts in a more productive attempt to curb the issue of piracy, including Bamco from 2019 and onwards.

[nobalkain]

Dude you provided no proof at first, your words contrary to what you may think are not proof. Thank you for the links this time as that does indeed provide some outside information that can lead to one finding proof.

What about your claim that they just gave up and stopped because of it? I know groups target games with it because its so Anti Consumer.

What about your claims that Denuvo leads to people getting games with it? This is the really crazy one because I see people post all the time saying they are not getting a game because of it.

As for why I am not providing proof, its because I dont have to. I am not trying to change anyones opinion here, you are. Most people hate these stupid programs. In fact you are the first person I have ever seen try and defend this crap so hard. I am just curious to see what you can provide as proof as I am always willing to hear both sides. I doubt you will change my mind, but you are more then welcome to try.

EDIT: Also want to point out that you stating that Piracy Rates are 94% and greater is proof that this does not work, not the other way around. How you can think it does is beyond me.

[Xengre]

Originally posted by lukaself:

This does not show it protects the sales, it shows that games using Denuvo are harder to obtain illegitimately than most games, which is true. There is no proof of the existence of a causal link between the strength of a DRM and sales though. Piracy is mostly driven by ideological, systemic or socio-economic factors which can't be converted into sales by DRM, no matter how strong it is.

On the other hand, sales have been causally linked with the quality, affordability and availability of a product which is where most publishers and developers chose to direct their efforts in a more productive attempt to curb the issue of piracy, including Bamco from 2019 and onwards.

Completely and utterly false and I'm astounded by such an effort to outright lie.

If the game is not cracked for months to a year then it cannot be illegally pirates for that period of time. If you are making the claim that being unable to illegally obtain and utilize a game for months or years on end has absolutely no impact whatsoever on piracy rates, especially for popular titles then you aren't even attempting to have a reasonable discussion.

It is false to say there is no evidence of DRM and piracy rates being linked. The only thing we don't have proof of is the statistical impact of anti-piracy measures on piracy rates. It is a known fact DRM statistically impacts sales volume and piracy rates. Even converting a single piracy attempt into a legitimate sale would invalidate your entire argument. This is how ridiculous your argument is.

There is no statistical evidence correlating economic factors and piracy rates in most cases, bar a specific exception. In fact, many of the wealthiest nations in the world are leaders in entertainment and digital piracy. Here is one such example study of just the the top 10 most visited piracy sites in 2016 with Signapore as the 9th most frequent traffic. Source: https://qz.com/974586/one-of-the-worlds-wealthiest-countries-is-also-one-of-its-biggest-online-pirates-nflix/

They're by no means the only, either, if you look into it further. Some nations have heavy piracy rates due purely due to social norms where it is actually considered largely abnormal to legitimately buy in their nation even though they they are not limited financially.

Game price has also not been found to be a factor in typical piracy rates with cheaper lower quality games often being among the most pirated. Quality has been proven to be something of a factor, kind of but this is a gray area. Higher quality/more popular games tend to have larger audiences so thus statistically more legitimate sales (flat value) but not necessarily % piracy vs legitimate rates. The break away point is there are some low quality cheaper titles that have absurd piracy rates (the reason for this isn't exactly known, yet) but this is not consistent across every cheaper or lower quality game in any currently explainable way.

The specific exception is countries so financially impoverished that in contrast to most nations where, say, a DVD might cost 1-2 hours of work it could cost them weeks or a month plus of work to buy that one product due to the staggering difference in cost vs income. These countries also often lack the proper education and enforcement of copyright laws further reinforcing piracy as the only option for most the population.

Inversely, there is evidence that piracy harms sales and an overwhelming amount of it at that. It is rather ironic that one of the best examples is CD Projekt, itself, despite their claims of being pirate friendly and anti-DRM. Their CEO has a history of citing abusive piracy rates of the 94+% range for Witcher 1 & 2. One can not claim that having DRM would have absolutely no impact in piracy rates when piracy rates are 94+% (that is over 1,500% increase over legitimate purchase rates). When legitimate owner rates are 4-8% even a 2-5% increase would be an immense boon. In addition, they released on 6 different platforms and despite being arguably the most well received WRPG and among the best RPG in the industry's entire history the sales don't quite match up to its reception or its extremely high quality and beefy content (where ever did they go?) at approximately 30m units since 2015 (7 years ago) on so many platforms. About 1/3rd of those sales are on the best platform/version of that game, PC at around 12m units, which is also the cheapest platform despite being the best further devaluing its limited growth. Further, the demographics don't paint a pretty picture for how well they succeeded by region with handling piracy. Sources: https://www.gamespot.com/articles/witcher-3s-sales-by-system-how-the-game-has-sold-o/1100-6475832/

It gets better, though. CD Projekt freaked out and started targeting pirates and piracy groups when Cyberpunk 2077 was being pirated even before it officially released slamming wave after wave of DMCA notices. Source: https://torrentfreak.com/pirating-cyberpunk-2077-cd-projekt-sends-waves-of-dmca-notices-201210/ So much for their prior stance and belief about piracy and lack of DRM. In fact, piracy rates for this game were completely off the charts record breaking, but of course I'm totally sure it totally did not hurt any profits. Ironically, the game not only had Denuvo for review copies but the released game was not 100% free of DRM measures, either, with regards to DLC and sign-up online/GOG.

Before you even drag in the old dated studies there are studies out there that are not properly handled and are excessively biased based on word of mouth and "honesty". These studies also almost always, especially the most popular ones, admit in them that piracy rates are very bad for certain mediums such as video games but the stats are skewed by other media mediums which makes it look better and less severe for video games even though their own studies show real problems with video game piracy, though of course those studies were not conducted properly to begin with and are questionable.

Originally posted by nobalkain:

Dude you provided no proof at first, your words contrary to what you may think are not proof. Thank you for the links this time as that does indeed provide some outside information that can lead to one finding proof.

What about your claim that they just gave up and stopped because of it? I know groups target games with it because its so Anti Consumer.

What about your claims that Denuvo leads to people getting games with it? This is the really crazy one because I see people post all the time saying they are not getting a game because of it.

As for why I am not providing proof, its because I dont have to. I am not trying to change anyones opinion here, you are. Most people hate these stupid programs. In fact you are the first person I have ever seen try and defend this crap so hard. I am just curious to see what you can provide as proof as I am always willing to hear both sides. I doubt you will change my mind, but you are more then welcome to try.

EDIT: Also want to point out that you stating that Piracy Rates are 94% and greater is proof that this does not work, not the other way around. How you can think it does is beyond me.

I literally gave you some game examples that prove DRM has helped protect profits dude. You are welcome for the links.

Groups quitting piracy scene or giving up on cracking some stuff such as Denuvo:
Ex. 1 (note they actually did come back and crack a Denuvo game shortly after, but it almost broke them) https://kotaku.com/one-of-the-worlds-biggest-pc-piracy-groups-is-quitting-1757670457 (Additional note: This did seem to break them to some extent as after cracking it they announced they would give up on cracking games for 1 year, some reports 2 years but I couldn't confirm that as I don't read Chinese. They used the excuse 3DM would stop to assess how harmful piracy is and how sales perform without them cracking but that was in 2016... and we haven't heard the verdict since which suggests either they didn't stop or the results were so devastating they didn't want to share them as it would harm their group. I can't find any confirmation of what happened with that for the life of me. Part of it is likely they found cracking Denuvo too challenging at the time, too, and wanted to let the scene mature with other groups and see what happens.).

Fitgirl is apparently one of the most popular pirate repackers and was arrested and at one point so was Empress who is one of the biggest crackers from my understanding: https://torrentfreak.com/denuvo-cracker-empress-arrested-blames-repacker-fitgirl-reddit-for-witch-hunt-210224/ Note: I think both are back from what I can see in articles? Something about how her country's laws protected her (tbh I don't care enough to search further as it is pointless, she is out and continuing I guess).

Police Arrest Six in Connection With Private Torrent Sites & Seedboxes[http//Police+Arrest+Six+in+Connection+With+Private+Torrent+Sites+%26amp%3B+Seedboxes]

Notorious Denuvo gaming cracker Voksi arrested in Bulgaria

After a 7-months hiatus, 3 Games With Denuvo Have been Cracked in the Last 3 Days[www.resetera.com] This one is a bit different not being a more official report but rather discussion over the lack of Denuvo cracks for a 7 month preceding period. Based on the content of that thread it appears no one is arguing this did not occur so while I couldn't find information to validate, officially, a lack of cracks for 7 months on Denuvo games this seems to support this is likely true for that period and Denuvo, as far as I am aware, has had periods of on and off cracking difficulties among pirates throughout the years. Further, the fact that they're pointing out low profile titles are being cracked while high profile ones are not reinforces the difficulties cracking at that time.

I'd find more info but this was actually a tad time consuming just for the sake of a basic topic. I've read more over time when coming across these discussions and investigating out of curiosity just to see who is right and what is what at a given time or any new revelations but finding old sources of such a topic is quite a hassle but this should be sufficient enough to support what was said.

[Xengre]

Continued because post was apparently too long for Steam...

You see a very small minority claiming they will not get a game because of DRM. Here, take a look at GOG's stat sheet they presented: https://items.gog.com/news/news_gog2020_info_users_en.jpg?_ga=2.55883627.1974114835.1645233966-1698945278.1645233966

Notice the bias towards Europe and to some extent the US? Notice that the overwhelming majority of the world does not seem to care about the DRM issue or support it? You can also notice that most DRM games using Denuvo and such are selling fine and still get very positive reviews despite extremely vocal groups surrounding them at times? You can also see they show some percentages but no raw numbers for sales performance which would help indicate a possible much lower level of volume success from consumers than otherwise despite their agenda? Every sale/user on there is also not a direct guarantee they're there for reasons related to DRM or due to being anti-DRM, necessarily, similar to the whole a piracy does not translate to a necessary loss of sale 1:1.

As I mentioned prior piracy rates are, at times, so extreme that you can, literally, guarantee if a DRM was capable enough to protect it then it would protect sales. This is by statistical fact that piracy rates are simply skewed to too great an extreme. Rehashing the point from before:
There is evidence that piracy harms sales and an overwhelming amount of it at that. One can not claim that having DRM would have absolutely no impact in piracy rates when piracy rates are 94+% (that is over 1,500% increase over legitimate purchase rates). When legitimate owner rates are 4-8% even a 2-5% increase would be an immense boon. It could not be claimed that if a popular game was not possible to pirate there would not be some increase with stats like this, and due to the extreme skew even a small % increase would be incredibly significant. I provided more detail in the prior post. Further, the fact that pirates claim to be converted to a game after pirating it is evidence alone because there are countless other reasons they can be converted eventually (marketing, sale, played at a friends, was told about it, etc.) and if the game was available no other way that will eventually become a sale in those cases because the game was to their taste, clearly. Unfortunately, the exact impact on profits is the big issue that is so difficult to determine and it could be something smaller but still significant like a 3% change from 94% to something enormous like a +30% shift in sales form 94% (aka a 600% increase in sales for example).

Originally posted by nobalkain:

As for why I am not providing proof, its because I dont have to. I am not trying to change anyones opinion here, you are. Most people hate these stupid programs. In fact you are the first person I have ever seen try and defend this crap so hard. I am just curious to see what you can provide as proof as I am always willing to hear both sides. I doubt you will change my mind, but you are more then welcome to try.

I actually have to disagree here. The onus of proof actually lies with the accuser, particularly when it runs against the expected norm.

Companies use DRM even when it can cost hundreds of thousands to millions of USD because their collected data and statistics supports that it helps, but to what precise degree is unknown. Piracy is known to have extreme rates, so high in fact, that we know piracy equates to some factually lost sales. This is an appropriate correlation, but the precise scale of impact is unknown. It could be smaller or larger than expected, and in fact is so unknown we can't even attempt at a reasonable guesstimate. Pirates have, in fact, been converted which is further evidence of loss sales otherwise, with a core question of being how to appropriate hook these potential sales to which the current solution is often insane expenditure on marketing (sometimes comparable to the actual cost of developing the game or more). Countless other anti-piracy measures exist (Steam, online only, etc.) and are effective as well as various profit models to counter piracy and these all exist for a reason.

I have a question for you, one that the OP was incapable of answering and in fact fled terrified when presented...
Why do you hate the DRM? Anti-DRM fanatics make a lot of arguments against it but, literally, most of the time it has been proven to be based on misinformation and being completely wrong. Yes, there are absolutely times DRM has gone awry sometimes permanently (SecureROM) and other times an exceedingly minor inconvenience for a brief period (rare Denuvo server cases, comparable to a game being down for a major update/server maintenance...). Most complaints about performance or other negatives have been disproved as non-issue most (not all admittedly but overwhelmingly most) of the time. Some like Denuvo have made efforts to make it less problematic to end users and there have been, hilariously, times where games had DRM (including Denuvo) but it was not reported until a long time later or most simply didn't know and there were no issues at all and no one was the wiser. There is also a ton of misinformation about longevity of a game with DRM, especially some such as Denuvo that have taken measures to protect their long-term availability, as well as game ownership legality which isn't what most anti-DRM consumers think it is. Further, if it isn't coming with a negative typically but it can boost their profits by even as small as 20-30% that could lead to investing in more/better projects in the future for us gamers to enjoy then that is a plus, not a minus. This is why I find the entire situation to be so ridiculous. While some DRM practices and mishaps have lead to legitimate complaints, DRM as a whole is actually extremely pro consumer just as much as it is pro developer. This doesn't mean it is perfect and couldn't be further improved, as historically proven over time, but DRM is not inherently evil or worthless and most of the time non-issue. People act like the 1% of the time it causes in the industry an issue is equal to 100% of the time always being a problem but it is not.

To your edit, piracy rates of 94% is proof DRM isn't as competent at stopping piracy as it should be, not that it doesn't help increase developer profits ever. See my prior points extending to game content/bug update life cycles, DLC, etc. as particularly noteworthy points of profit security.

I wont do any other major posts on this topic because it is more time consuming than typical posts and it doesn't matter as I've been pretty comprehensive at this point and it either is receptive or not.

One thing I do agree is what Sabaithal was hinting at which is the lack of opportunity to get a proper feel or hands on experience with the game to hook the user into buying it. The lack of demo/trial play for games in modern times is probably not helping the fight against piracy and is something developers could use as a meaningful tool to potentially curb piracy to some degree. Alas, most developers are so busy rushing games out the door not even properly ready they can't be bothered with also working on a proper demo, or even worse they want to catch buyers in a facade with hype and marketing but then the buyer likely wont or cannot refund a game after trying the product they purchased (Cyberpunk 2077 style).

[DeathHydra]

That post is so huge, I bet nobody will read that, especially the anti-Denuvo people.

I've read only bits of it, and and just wanna chime in a bit.

Originally posted by Xengre:

Fitgirl is apparently one of the most popular pirate repackers and was arrested and at one point so was Empress who is one of the biggest crackers from my understanding: https://torrentfreak.com/denuvo-cracker-empress-arrested-blames-repacker-fitgirl-reddit-for-witch-hunt-210224/ Note: I think both are back from what I can see in articles? Something about how her country's laws protected her (tbh I don't care enough to search further as it is pointless, she is out and continuing I guess).

I do think EMPRESS is out and about, though I've seen posts on Reddit saying that she will only crack Denuvo games if she gets paid. Not sure how true those statements are, but if it's true, then it kinda proves that Denuvo actually works, making it time-consuming to crack the game.

To the topic overall, I personally believe that most pirates are actually young people who do not have their own source of income, so if a game is not cracked, they will simply not buy it. People can change, though, and when they grow and have their own source of income, they might start to buy games. I was a pirate myself back when I was a student, and now that I'm working and have my own source of income, I've bought a couple of games and will keep buying games in the future. I've even bought some games that I've pirated back in the day (though I bought it on sale).

[nobalkain]

First off as to why I dont like it, its because it punishes people who buy games. I have to have running a program that eats up my resources and messes with my Computer because of other peoples crimes. I should not have to pay for other peoples choices, they should. Other companies have put in Code into a game that messes with the player if they have not bought the game and it has proven to be much more useful.

Kotaku is a joke and I do not consider anything they put out to be worth reading.

Again I have seen plenty of people post just on Steam about not wanting to get games due to Denuvo. Still have never seen anyone, besides you, say anything good about them.

There will always be new Hacker Groups coming along so a group or two stopping doesnt show that it will stop any time soon.

As to why companies spend money, no clue. Ask them for me because spending Money on something that may get you at best a 6% investment is just plain dumb.

Sorry but that 94% proves that it does nothing. Even if you could prove the other 6% is due to them its a joke of a number.

At this point with how hard you having been trying to push this as being great you either work for them, have a stake in them, have Relatives that do, or are in some strange Denuvo Cult.

I do find it funny you try and say how you dont need to provide proof and yet go about doing so, thanks again for doing so. Also your claim that you did before I asked is still false. Just saying stuff with out citing outside information that people can check is not proof.

[Ceriss]

Well, I'll say that it's unlikely DRM will turn customers. PC players wait forever to have good games ported from consoles. We wait for ♥♥♥♥♥♥ Epic Exclusivity to run out (or we pirate cause Epic is garbage)

I've been waiting idk how long for Persona 5 to come to PC, if people are like me then... yeah they'll just wait until it IS cracked if they don't want to or can't pay.

Being less anti-consumer would probably help as much or more as Denuvo, put your ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ games on as many platforms as possible. The less ways people can play your game, the more likely they are to pirate it instead, because nobody is buying a console to play one game. They'll sure as ♥♥♥♥ get it emulated though.