Pathfinder: Kingmaker

Pathfinder: Kingmaker

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InvaderGrim 3 NOV 2018 a las 10:31 p. m.
Why do peaple like Tristan?
(Spoilers)I just dont get it hes incredibly annoying and betrays you for an incredibly selfish and vain reason that causes even more death.I just dont get why people like him.
Edit, also he cant wear armour
Última edición por InvaderGrim; 3 NOV 2018 a las 11:02 p. m.
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Mostrando 31-45 de 51 comentarios
Babbles 4 NOV 2018 a las 4:49 p. m. 
Publicado originalmente por Von Faustien:
Publicado originalmente por InvaderGrim:
(Spoilers)I just dont get it hes incredibly annoying and betrays you for an incredibly selfish and vain reason that causes even more death.I just dont get why people like him.
Edit, also he cant wear armour

i think hes a massive ♥♥♥♥ and id stuff my royal pillow with his plucked angle feathers if the game gave a replacment but it didnt so he stays

Brilliant, angel feather pillow :)
76561198249640122 4 NOV 2018 a las 4:49 p. m. 
I like him because he made a nice splatter when I executed him.
pchinchilla9 4 NOV 2018 a las 4:51 p. m. 
Tristian's whole betrayal was a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥. I feel like two different people wrote it. One who thought it was compelling to have the whole fallen angel, does everything Nyrissa says because he is selfish. And one that came in yelling, "We can't do that! He's neutral good! He's the only councillor! He can't mass murder people because 'I don't like being mortal.' He was forced. Yep, forced. He had no choice but to do things she said to the letter!"
Ashley 4 NOV 2018 a las 5:00 p. m. 
Publicado originalmente por pchinchilla9:
Tristian's whole betrayal was a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥. I feel like two different people wrote it. One who thought it was compelling to have the whole fallen angel, does everything Nyrissa says because he is selfish. And one that came in yelling, "We can't do that! He's neutral good! He's the only councillor! He can't mass murder people because 'I don't like being mortal.' He was forced. Yep, forced. He had no choice but to do things she said to the letter!"

Yes, because people can't ever be coerced or forced into doing things they don't want to do. Even when someone has something you need dearly and won't give it up without your cooperation. And certainly not in a world where magic, curses, and charms exist. Yep, none of those things have any bearing on someone's actions.

Tristian followed the letter of her orders... and undermined them when he could. The cultists from his personal quest? His doing, yes, but he fought them off because he wasn't specifically told not to. Same with the Oculus. If you're close enough with him, he'll destroy it before taking it to Nyrissa because she didn't tell him not to.
pchinchilla9 4 NOV 2018 a las 5:05 p. m. 
Publicado originalmente por Buster:
Publicado originalmente por pchinchilla9:
Tristian's whole betrayal was a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥. I feel like two different people wrote it. One who thought it was compelling to have the whole fallen angel, does everything Nyrissa says because he is selfish. And one that came in yelling, "We can't do that! He's neutral good! He's the only councillor! He can't mass murder people because 'I don't like being mortal.' He was forced. Yep, forced. He had no choice but to do things she said to the letter!"

Yes, because people can't ever be coerced or forced into doing things they don't want to do. Even when someone has something you need dearly and won't give it up without your cooperation. And certainly not in a world where magic, curses, and charms exist. Yep, none of those things have any bearing on someone's actions.

Tristian followed the letter of her orders... and undermined them when he could. The cultists from his personal quest? His doing, yes, but he fought them off because he wasn't specifically told not to. Same with the Oculus. If you're close enough with him, he'll destroy it before taking it to Nyrissa because she didn't tell him not to.
That isn't at all what I am saying. I'm saying if you listen to the characters talk they go back and forth between, "♥♥♥♥ you Tristian you betraying monster!" and "We need to find Nyrissa and punish her for how she hurt and controlled Tristian!" sometimes the same characters within a 10-20 minute span. Tristian himself waffles between "I had to do these exact things, but I had wiggle room to protect you" and "I just did it because I'm scared of death"
Ashley 4 NOV 2018 a las 5:16 p. m. 
Publicado originalmente por pchinchilla9:
Publicado originalmente por Buster:

Yes, because people can't ever be coerced or forced into doing things they don't want to do. Even when someone has something you need dearly and won't give it up without your cooperation. And certainly not in a world where magic, curses, and charms exist. Yep, none of those things have any bearing on someone's actions.

Tristian followed the letter of her orders... and undermined them when he could. The cultists from his personal quest? His doing, yes, but he fought them off because he wasn't specifically told not to. Same with the Oculus. If you're close enough with him, he'll destroy it before taking it to Nyrissa because she didn't tell him not to.
That isn't at all what I am saying. I'm saying if you listen to the characters talk they go back and forth between, "♥♥♥♥ you Tristian you betraying monster!" and "We need to find Nyrissa and punish her for how she hurt and controlled Tristian!" sometimes the same characters within a 10-20 minute span. Tristian himself waffles between "I had to do these exact things, but I had wiggle room to protect you" and "I just did it because I'm scared of death"

You mean how the different characters with different personalities have different opinions? Or how Tristian literally explains the concept of coercion I tried to describe earlier and you completely ignored? I've been through that section twice. It's rushed, yes, but it's believable in the setting and with the villains we're dealing with.
henrique117 4 NOV 2018 a las 5:47 p. m. 
I agree with the OP. I dislike the character not only for its awful personality and deeds, but also for his inability to be a second-line melee combatent (something i expect of a cleric).
Von Faustien 4 NOV 2018 a las 7:42 p. m. 
Publicado originalmente por Babbles:
Publicado originalmente por Von Faustien:

i think hes a massive ♥♥♥♥ and id stuff my royal pillow with his plucked angle feathers if the game gave a replacment but it didnt so he stays

Brilliant, angel feather pillow :)
its divinly soft:steamhappy:
76561198061995910 4 NOV 2018 a las 8:48 p. m. 
Publicado originalmente por pchinchilla9:
if you listen to the characters talk they go back and forth between, "♥♥♥♥ you Tristian you betraying monster!" and "We need to find Nyrissa and punish her for how she hurt and controlled Tristian!" sometimes the same characters within a 10-20 minute span. Tristian himself waffles between "I had to do these exact things, but I had wiggle room to protect you" and "I just did it because I'm scared of death"
Are you sure that's what 'they're' saying. Do you distinguish between characters? Regongar and Octavia might have a different opinion than Linizi who might be different than Harrim.

Octavia and Regongar were slaves, beaten and broken from childhood, surrounded by people who were 'broken' on a regular basis and even they might have different views on how they feel about the victim of torture. Hence the CE and CG alignments.

Linzi is a bleeding heart.

Harrim is a hard ass without empathy, and probably joined by Amiri.

So who exactly is saying bad or good things about Tristian might really be dependent on their personality.

Don't lump Harrim, Linizi and Regongar all as ONE person, they are NOT.


pchinchilla9 5 NOV 2018 a las 11:17 a. m. 
Publicado originalmente por ericsaxon35:
Publicado originalmente por pchinchilla9:
if you listen to the characters talk they go back and forth between, "♥♥♥♥ you Tristian you betraying monster!" and "We need to find Nyrissa and punish her for how she hurt and controlled Tristian!" sometimes the same characters within a 10-20 minute span. Tristian himself waffles between "I had to do these exact things, but I had wiggle room to protect you" and "I just did it because I'm scared of death"
Are you sure that's what 'they're' saying. Do you distinguish between characters? Regongar and Octavia might have a different opinion than Linizi who might be different than Harrim.

Octavia and Regongar were slaves, beaten and broken from childhood, surrounded by people who were 'broken' on a regular basis and even they might have different views on how they feel about the victim of torture. Hence the CE and CG alignments.

Linzi is a bleeding heart.

Harrim is a hard ass without empathy, and probably joined by Amiri.

So who exactly is saying bad or good things about Tristian might really be dependent on their personality.

Don't lump Harrim, Linizi and Regongar all as ONE person, they are NOT.
No, I mean Linzi for example gets very upset, but then later when they find out how to get into Nyrissa's head says the let's punish her bit. I feel like no one read the *same* character part.
Última edición por pchinchilla9; 5 NOV 2018 a las 11:17 a. m.
Morgian 5 NOV 2018 a las 11:27 a. m. 
So people are actually playing with Tristian. I don't like Harrim since he sees all glasses half empty, but he works fine, when I'm not the cleric myself. Including a cleric into a party who cannot even wear armor was anathema from the start.
Brian Sirith 5 NOV 2018 a las 11:52 a. m. 
Publicado originalmente por Morgian:
So people are actually playing with Tristian. I don't like Harrim since he sees all glasses half empty, but he works fine, when I'm not the cleric myself. Including a cleric into a party who cannot even wear armor was anathema from the start.

Im a cleric that doesnt wear armour, I have Tristian who doesn't wear armour and Harrim :P

Also robes later in game are VERY good.
Última edición por Brian Sirith; 5 NOV 2018 a las 11:52 a. m.
catbertscousin 6 NOV 2018 a las 9:49 p. m. 
I've never had a problem with him not wearing armor. I just keep him in the back with a crossbow like my ranged people and he's fine. There are more ways to play a cleric than as a big suit of armor stomping slowly around with a mace. He's my main healer and when you stack feats and items on his Channel Positive Energy, he can pump out a lot of HP to the whole party in a hurry.

As to why I like Tristian as a character, it's quite simply because he's the best good-aligned moral compass in the game. Does he turn out to have been proud and foolish in the past? Yes. Does he turn out to be hiding weakness and cowardice, cooborating with evil fey for fear of being damned? Yes. And he's absolutely guilty for what he's done. But there's three main factors to consider along with that.

The first is that he is by no means the only one of your companions to do bad stuff. Linzi flat-out steals from the treasury to get what she wants. Valerie, a knight, starts fights in the tavern over percieved slights to her looks. Jaethal murdered four members of her own family to get immortality and pleasure. Regongar routinely suggests you kill prisoners. Nok-Nok... enough said. I still have all of them on my team. Is what Tristian did worse? In terms of bodycount, yes. But Tristian knows it was wrong; the rest of your party is usually remarkably un-self aware when it comes to their faults.

The second factor is that Tristian, the neutral good cleric who is constantly begging you to show mercy to every evil monster and hardened criminal you beat down, never once asks you to show mercy to him. He asks for your forgiveness (a relational, not a judicial matter) and tries to explain why he was such a coward in working for Nyrissa, but he Never. Asks. To. Be. Spared. Tristian is very well aware that what he's done is wrong, evil, and unpardonable and while he wants you to know why he did it, he accepts that you have the right to judge him for it even when he knows dying as a mortal means being separated from his Goddess forever.

The third factor, as is pointed out in the dialogue trees, is that even while working for Nyrissa Tristian does feed you useful information and helps you when he can, to mitigate the damage to the kingdom. Don't forget he's the one who predicts the Bald Hill events, "discovers" where the seeds hide in the body, how they work, and tells you where to find the source. He tries to warn you against confronting Nyrissa because he thinks you'll be killed or captured like he was. Is he a coward? Yes. Is he evil? No. (Evil in the D&D/Pathfinder systems means the person enjoys the suffering of others - Tristian never enjoys what he's doing for Nyrissa.)

Here's the thing. When Tristian isn't around, who speaks up to counsel the PC towards mercy and grace? Sometimes Octavia, if the person in question was enslaved or under some form of unwilling constraint. Very occasionally Ekun or Valerie. But in general, without Tristian you can callously murder every NPC you beat down and your party will just shrug and move on. In the constraints of the game, you're supposed to be a ruler setting up a new kingdom, making hard decisions and setting the course for everyone in your lands. Doesn't it behoove you to have at least one councillor who will beg you to be merciful? If you're playing evil then obviously not, but in all other cases, aren't you trying to set up a kingdom that's morally better than those of the Stag Lord, Vordekai, the Sisters, the Fey, or any of the other villains? Do you want all of your advisors to be people who either don't care whether people live or die, or won't risk making you angry by bringing it up?

In a judicial sense, I do think Tristian deserves to be executed for what he's done. But I also consider the scene from Henry V, Act 2 Scene 2, where King Henry confronts his three companions who were hired to assassinate him. Henry, knowing their plot, brings up the matter of a man arrested for cursing the king and says they should release him because he was drunk. The traitors disagree, saying the man should be executed for his fault. Henry suggests they should be merciful, since it was a small fault and if the crown is not merciful to small faults, what will it do with great ones? The traitors say again the man should be punished harshly. Henry reveals he knows of their treason and they promptly start begging for mercy; in an amazing speech Henry tells them their own arguments are why he will not show them mercy and sentences them to be executed - not for betraying him personally, but for the threat they pose to the country. Brilliant scene.

Very similar setup, but the Betrayer's Flight scene is opposite in a crucial way. Tristian is the one who has always begged you to show mercy to others but when his own treachery is revealed, he does not ask you to show mercy to him. He admits his evil deeds and his crimes and accepts whatever judgment you give him. (Yes, you have to kill him in combat, but there's no dialogue over this and it's basically a formality.)

So why do I pardon Tristian? Admittedly, the munchkin in me wants my best healer and my only councillor back. (Also, that's MY NPC, whom I have leveled and geared for 20+ hours. Give him back, you thieving fey witch.) But in a literary sense, it makes a much better story if the man who has always been steadfastly merciful to his enemies is in turn shown mercy when he deserves judgment. Tristian knows I have every reason not to pardon him and he will never forget that I still did.

So the short answer is "because despite his grevious failings he's still a good person and I need those around me if I'm not going to run my kingdom like a murder-hobo."

Everyone makes their own value decisions and judgments about game morality trees, and that's mine. That's why I like Tristian - despite everything, he's a good man and in any world those are in very short supply.
OnlyOffensive 6 NOV 2018 a las 9:53 p. m. 
Easy oculus. Now i only need to sacrifice linzi for more abyss artifacts and im set
Última edición por OnlyOffensive; 6 NOV 2018 a las 9:54 p. m.
OnlyOffensive 6 NOV 2018 a las 10:00 p. m. 
Publicado originalmente por catbertscousin:

That's why I like Tristian - despite everything, he's a good man and in any world those are in very short supply.


That punk was willingly giving artifact to crazy nymph, but refuses to give it to me ( For good cause of course ) BIG MISTAKE

For all he knew he doomed whole river kingdoms with that act in hopes to break a curse. Like Sarenae would invite him back after that lol.
Última edición por OnlyOffensive; 6 NOV 2018 a las 10:01 p. m.
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