Pathfinder: Kingmaker

Pathfinder: Kingmaker

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Icedfate Dec 2, 2021 @ 6:31pm
magus and touch attacks
so, apparently, a magus can hold a weapon in one hand and cast a touch attack spell im their offhand, like 2 weapon fighting, but the offhand is a spell?

and then i see regongar has touch of fatigue cantrip.

and then i see people saying he's "supposed " to have touch if fatigue on auto use, so every round, he's doing a full attack + the touch.

but doesn't using a spell in melee combat provoke an AOO?
and i saw someone ask this on reddit and the answer was "using the touch of fatigue with their weapon is the whole point of playing the magus in the first place"

so reg, with his already crappy AC is supposed to stand on the front line, eating AOO's constantly?
yeah, i know he can cast blur and mirror image and displacement and shield and mage armor , but still, any time you're letting the enemy roll more often is gonna be bad for you, no?
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Showing 1-10 of 10 comments
Wraith_Magus Dec 2, 2021 @ 7:10pm 
You can cast defensively by doing a concentration check, which negates the AoO. The Combat Casting feat is explicitly made for this, giving a +4 on the check. This is done automatically.

Also, the concentration check is based on character level, Con, and the DC increases with spell level, so casting a cantrip makes it a very easy pass.
Last edited by Wraith_Magus; Dec 2, 2021 @ 7:11pm
Icedfate Dec 2, 2021 @ 7:53pm 
oh, i guess i misunderstood that check. i thought you still get hit, but succeeding the check just meant you don't fail the spell along with it.

this must be why enemy spellcasters seem to be tankier than they should be, despite me having 4 melees dogpiling them. .
Last edited by Icedfate; Dec 2, 2021 @ 7:54pm
Wraith_Magus Dec 3, 2021 @ 7:34am 
Originally posted by Icedfate:
oh, i guess i misunderstood that check. i thought you still get hit, but succeeding the check just meant you don't fail the spell along with it.

this must be why enemy spellcasters seem to be tankier than they should be, despite me having 4 melees dogpiling them. .

There's also a concentration check if you're hit while casting, where the DC is 10+SL+the damage taken... which basically means you automatically fail, since the DC will be something like 60 half the time. This is why, in tabletop, you do stuff like have Step Up and ready an action to attack when the wizard starts casting, because that ignores casting defensively. You'll notice that most of the time, your characters won't even get those attacks of opportunities, because the enemy makes their caster check.

Concentration used to be a skill in 3e (the only one that used Con), but Pathfinder found it a "skill tax", and made it a variation on caster level level check that actually uses Con. Casting defensively is 15+2*SL, so casting your highest-level spell keeps up with caster level if you are a full caster, but casting lower-level spells gets safe pretty quickly, especially if you have Combat Casting and high Con. Also monster spellcasters tend to have higher HD than a pure wizard will, and a 26 HD caster with 30 Con is going to basically never fail a defensive casting check...
Icedfate Dec 3, 2021 @ 3:02pm 
so, i just want to make sure i understand. if the caster succeeds their defensive caster check, it completely negates the AOO's against them?
Finarfin Dec 3, 2021 @ 3:04pm 
Can't you just Enlarge Person him and have him reach over your frontliner with his weapon and his hand?
Icedfate Dec 3, 2021 @ 3:09pm 
does that work? i thought it lowers your AC so you'll get hit even more. i get the idea of "Reach" but then the enmies can just reach over as well, or they just repositon themself to move slightly past your tank and attack the guy in back anyway

I was using legendary proportions in the endgame, but i wasn't discussing endgame. i was discussing early game, like, how to properly use regongar with his touch attacks.

since reading this, i did turn on his touch of fatigue back on. can't really tell what effect it's having on combat. i guess it makes mobs "fatigued" so what is that a -1 to all their dice rolls? i guess any bonus effect added to his melee attacks is good
JonWoo Dec 3, 2021 @ 7:15pm 
Originally posted by Icedfate:
does that work? i thought it lowers your AC so you'll get hit even more. i get the idea of "Reach" but then the enmies can just reach over as well, or they just repositon themself to move slightly past your tank and attack the guy in back anyway

I was using legendary proportions in the endgame, but i wasn't discussing endgame. i was discussing early game, like, how to properly use regongar with his touch attacks.

since reading this, i did turn on his touch of fatigue back on. can't really tell what effect it's having on combat. i guess it makes mobs "fatigued" so what is that a -1 to all their dice rolls? i guess any bonus effect added to his melee attacks is good

Yes it works. It depends, it gives your normal sized characters double their reach from 5 feet normally to 10 feet. If an enemy only has 5 feet of reach they can't hit him unless they get closer. And yes, they do get a -1 penalty to AC for their size and -1 for their dexterity penalty. It also increases your damage a bit by adding strength and increasing your weapon damage die. The latter being more useful depending on your weapon. A scimitar will only go from a d6 to a d8 but a longsword goes from a d8 to 2d6. A bastard sword goes from 1d10 to 2d8.

When they're using spell combat and spell strike and cast a spell they get an extra melee attack. So while ToF isn't great, that's not what you're wanting to use it for. It's so he gets an extra attack every time he casts it.

If you're using the Call of the Wild mod there's a spell called Long Arm that is first level and only increases the character's reach, no size changes or anything if you're worried about the AC penalty.
Pawell Dec 3, 2021 @ 7:38pm 
Give him feat called COMBAT CASTING and you wont have this problem. The orc is death machine in turn based combat and weak meele in real time (because he first has to cast and then do meele attack, it takes so much animation time normal characters get to attack twice during that time).
Wraith_Magus Dec 3, 2021 @ 9:19pm 
Originally posted by Icedfate:
does that work? i thought it lowers your AC so you'll get hit even more. i get the idea of "Reach" but then the enmies can just reach over as well, or they just repositon themself to move slightly past your tank and attack the guy in back anyway

I was using legendary proportions in the endgame, but i wasn't discussing endgame. i was discussing early game, like, how to properly use regongar with his touch attacks.

since reading this, i did turn on his touch of fatigue back on. can't really tell what effect it's having on combat. i guess it makes mobs "fatigued" so what is that a -1 to all their dice rolls? i guess any bonus effect added to his melee attacks is good

The effect is he gets an extra attack per round. Magi deliver their "touch" spells by reaching out and "touching" people in the face with their sword. Specifically, it uses the Spellstrike feature. Note that this means you can crit with spells and the spells do more damage, ♥♥♥♥ yes! This is why Regongar has a scimitar! I'm sure I don't need to explain this to you because you'd recognize what a fantastic deal it is on your own and not gripe about a piddly -2 to attack, but Spellstrike and Spell Combat stay on at all times, non-negotiable, these two abilities are why someone plays Magus at all.

Enlarge will lower your AC by an effective -2, yes, but if they're not being attacked because they're reaching, it doesn't matter.

Enemies will not reposition themselves to attack so long as they are targeting someone else, so since you have a tank focusing attention on them, that never matters, especially since reaching means they're even less likely to get any attention on them. Enemies do not care what your AC is when they decide who to attack. Also, if you're used to Legendary Proportions, then Legendary Proportions is just the upgraded version of Enlarge Person. (Legendary Proportions also reduces your AC by -2 because it's changing your size. Legendary Proportions just gives more size and more Str, Con, weapon damage, and natural armor bonuses for your trouble.)

As for Touch of Fatigue, yes, it inflicts -2 Strength and Dexterity, which is an effective -1 to attacks, damage, and AC. That's not the point, though. The point is that casting any spell lets you get an extra attack, and you never run out of cantrips, so cast away! I've also seen Magi use spells like Arcane Mark to "Zorro" their initials onto enemies just to trigger the extra attack, but getting some sort of debuff out of it too is nice.

See also all those spells that wizards get you'd never use because they involve touch attacks - they're awesome on a Magus. Shocking Grasp is a classic that deals 5d6 damage plus your extra attack (and with Intensified, can go up to 10d6 - that's a fireball's worth of damage on top of your full attack WITH an extra attack). Chill Touch gives you +1d6 damage to all your attacks for CL attacks and does 1 point of Str damage with every hit (dropping enemy attack and damage) if they fail their save, making it a good "economical" spell. At SL2, Frigid Touch is useful more for the stagger with no save than the damage. At SL 3, Vampiric Touch is fantastic if you ever find Regongar actually being the target of any attacks - it's as powerful as Sneak Attack, and you get to keep the damage as temporary HP - this can often give Regongar about 1/3rd of his max HP in temp HP! Also, remember that Mirror Image is better than worrying about AC.
Last edited by Wraith_Magus; Dec 3, 2021 @ 9:24pm
Icedfate Dec 4, 2021 @ 1:08pm 
okay. thanks, you all answered my question, in incredible detail. there's nothing more i can add to this
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Date Posted: Dec 2, 2021 @ 6:31pm
Posts: 10