vital strike

[Icedfate]

i see people online seem to majority agree that this is a bad feat. . .but why?

i see it says you need BAB 6, which is when you would normally gain your second attack roll.
woth 2 attacks, you get the first one at your bab and the second is bab minus 5
vital strike allows you forego that second attack to instead use your normal bab to attack for double damage.

this seems to be a win win, mathematically, you are more likely to hit with your normal BAB than you are with BAB - 5.

x > x-5

it seems like you would have a higher DPR using vital strike. olus, doing a more concentrated hit, would help bypass DR.

i mean, i get it, the characters eventually get 3 and then 4 attacks, but those extra attacks are made at -10 and -15 to hit, are those attacks even likely to hit ever?

i understand maybe it's bad for a frontline fighter, especially a dual wielder.

and a strength based archer is probably better off with clustered shots, but what about the support characters like mages and bards and healer ecclesitheurge clerics that stand back and kind of have nothing to do until called upon?
those characters are gonna have lower BAB and not likelt to get that 4th attack, if they even get the 3rd. and they will struggle to get past DR with their puny crossbows. but with vital strike, they can make a single attack with full BAB and roll 2 dice to sneak past that anmoying DR10 that so many things seem to have.

or is it bad because they should just be using their class skills?
i mean, i know alchemist has their bombs and in the tougher fights you'r just gonna spam those and sorcerors get tons of spells to cast all night long.

I dunno. i saw a build that said to make Amiri use it with her ginormous sword

[Icedfate]

welp. . never mind. I see. i took it on a crossbow user and was using it, confused why nothing is happening. it just says "i "used vital stike" and then i saw my character swinging the crossbow like a club and i realized. . .it's a melee attack! the description just says "an attack", not a "melee attack", so this feat is useless on a ranged weapon user.

so that's why everyone says it's bad

[steventirey]

It should work with ranged weapons, but I can find a number of posts about people complaining about it not working with ranged weapons.

It doesn't actually double damage. It just doubles the weapons damage dice (so a 1d8 longsword does 2d8 damage). Any additional damage beyond that, like from your Strength or a magic weapon, isn't doubled.

So assume for a moment you had 18 strength, and a +1 longsword (total of 1d8+5 damage, or an average of 9.5 damage). You could get 2 attacks of 1d8+5 and, assuming both hit, deal an average of 19 damage in total. Or use Vital Strike, the 1d8 doubles to 2d8, and so you deal 2d8+5, or an average of 14 damage.

But remember, with multiple attacks you have multiple chances to critically hit as well. Basically, with Vital Strike you give up that extra damage your additional attacks could of done, in order to deal a bit more damage on your primary attack. Its main use, however, is to just get more damage while still being able to move. It also does help to deal with damage reduction.

[Icedfate]

well, i really wanted it for the crossbow users, because their crossbows can't get through DR. and i guess i figured out on my own it doesn't work with crossbows,
.
.
and i just found a crossbow of lycanthrope bane, so there's that

[ShiroiWolf]

Originally posted by Icedfate:

well, i really wanted it for the crossbow users, because their crossbows can't get through DR. and i guess i figured out on my own it doesn't work with crossbows,
.
.
and i just found a crossbow of lycanthrope bane, so there's that

Pick up the Clustered Shots feat (Requires BAB 6+, Point-Blank Shot, Precise Shot). Its wording and the actual effect may be weird, but in game, basically it means that once the damage you inflict with that Full-Attack action exceeds the target's Damage Reduction, it stops applying for the remainder of your attacks.

Crossbows are also a little weird in Kingmaker. Normally, yes, they would be Single shot per turn, plus actions to reload in Table Top without Feats/Class Traits/Training and using Repeating Crossbows. However, in Kingmaker, you get to make as many attacks as you have with Crossbows when Full-Attacking. So a character that lacks the strength bonus/proficiency to make use of Composite Bows or Throwing weapons, should probably stick with Crossbows.

[Icedfate]

yeah, i get it. the reason why i wanted vital strike for crossbow would have been to make 1 attack at +11 with double dice imstead of 2 attacks st +11/+6 with 1 die each. because it's likely that i might miss that second shot, the clustered shots would never work anyway.

but since vital strike is melee only, i guess clustered shots is the only option

[Wraith_Magus]

The reason why you take Vital Strike is not because it does more damage than a full attack (because it definitely doesn't), but because it allows you to do more damage with a standard attack, and D&D/Pathfinder is a game where, while it would be nice if every enemy just lined up to get hacked down no more than 5' away from your fighters, they sometimes have the unmitigated gall to make you have to move to them to kill them, and that means you don't get the benefit of all those iterative attacks. With up to 4 basic attacks, haste, and possibly off-hand weapons or natural attacks, you could be losing as many as 8 attacks per round. Vital Strike is just a way of mitigating how much damage you lose when you inevitably have to move during combat, not a way of dealing more damage, which is why some people who only look at peak damage disregard it. (This is also why it's really a melee feat, not a ranged feat - ranged attackers need to move to be able to attack less. In fact, Manyshot in 3.5 was a standard action just to do exactly what Vital Strike does for melee attacks, but PF changed it to adding attacks to a full attack.)

Also note that there's features/feats that let you get your vital strike damage added to a charge. When getting surprise rounds for being the one that initiates battle (which you should absolutely be doing any time it's not plot-manadated you don't get to surprise the enemy), you can open up with a charge attack to get to range AND deal double weapon damage. Most fights only last 2-3 rounds, so having extra damage on that opening charge to get to melee range can make a real impact and help you take down an enemy before it gets a turn. (Make sure you spread out and leave a lane open for all your melee characters to charge!)

Oh, and remember that it doubles weapon damage, but weapon damage is based upon size. Each size category can upgrade weapon damage by about 50%, so if you go out of your way to get big weapons and then Enlarge Person, Amiri's ginormous sword goes from 2d8 to 3d8, and now you're doing 6d8 weapon damage before adding strength and other mods to your attack with Vital Strike. If you effectively go up two sizes (Lead Blades spell or Impact weapon enhancement), it becomes 4d8 base damage or 8d8 /w Vital Strike. (The preferred weapon for vital strike is an oversized orcish butchering axe, which has a base damage of 4d6, then goes to as much as 24d6 with a large character, lead blades/impact weapon and improved vital strike. Oh the glory of geometric scaling!)

That said, this is all talking about the turn-based original game. RtwP can mess with that and negate the utility of not having to give up full attacks. (I don't know exactly how RtwP works, since I never play with it.)

[Frostfeather]

Originally posted by Icedfate:

well, i really wanted it for the crossbow users, because their crossbows can't get through DR. and i guess i figured out on my own it doesn't work with crossbows,

Vital Strike definitely works on ranged weapons in Wrath, so that's weird. I actually have a bow-using Rowdy Rogue Elf merc in Wrath named "Oneshot", for obvious reasons, lol.

But as for Kingmaker and getting through DR, another route is to stack Hurricane Bow with Enlarge Person or Hurricane Bow with Legendary Proportions, especially on a heavy crossbow because it has high base damage. Then, you can get a hold of a certain heavy crossbow with 2d10+5 base damage that goes up to 8d8+5 with Hurricane Bow and Legendary Proportions. Heavy crossbow is kind of my go-to weapon for my Eldritch Knights, Rangers, etc for that reason.