Elf Paladin - build idea discussion/advice needed

[Schanez]

I have been romancing with this game the past few days, thrown into my usual cunundrum of "What should I play?" and to say it was easy to push through, would be an astounding oversimplification. I have finally settled for something I have never played before, that being a Paladin. And I believe here is the time, where I explain, that I am a seasoned P&P Pathfinder player. And while considering all the options, I decided... Why not pick a weapon, I haven't played with either? Let me present to you...

Elven Curved Blade Paladin of Sarenrae!
Str:10 Dex:18 Con:12 Int:14 Wis:8 Cha:16

Paladin 1/Rogue 1-3/Paladin 2-17
The idea is, to start with Paladin for Armor and Weapon proficiencies. You can easily push through the prologue and the initial levels with just a Longbow, Shield and Light Mace. On level two I would grab Rogue for the free Weapon Finesse for the Light Mace and continue leveling the class till Paladin 1/Rogue 3. Use Finesse Training for Elven Curved Blade and return to leveling up Paladin till 20.

Here is more or less what you give up from Paladin for the 3 levels of Rogue.

• 1 Spell Slot of level 2 and 3, 2 Spell Slots of level 4;
  
• Holy Champion, most importantly 10DR / Evil;
  
• a bit of BAB;
  
• one Mercy gained on lvl 18;
  
• 1d6 of Chanell Positive Energy on lvl 19;
  
• 2 uses of Lay on Hands from the 3 Paladin levels;
  
• 3 minutes and +1 of Divine Bond from the 3 Paladin levels;
  
• 1 use and 3 points of damage of Smite Evil from the 3 Paladin levels.

Here is more or less what you gain from 3 levels of Rogue.

• Weapon Finesse on level 1;
  
• Finesse Training on level 3;
  
• 2d6 of Sneak Attack from the 3 Rogue levels;
  
• Evasion on level 2;
  
• Rogue Talent on level 2, can be used for unique Rogue feature or additional Combat Feat;
  
• 6 additional skill ranks from the 3 Rogue levels;
  
• Danger Sense +1 on level 3.

Do keep in mind, that most of that is from the top of my head based on my knowledge of the traditional system. From what I have seen so far, the Kingmaker uses the Unchained Rogue version of the class. I am not yet sure, what changes have been made during adaptation of the system to a PC game. I was explained, that flanking is much easier now, as it uses something similar to 5e rules, although with some bugs, form what I have seen so far.

This seems like a decent enough character, giving up some of the divine side for a more grounded melee warrior. I was considering the Divine Hunter, but they seem to be purely focused on being a "melee" Crossbow Paladin, which I don't like that much. Eldritch Scoundrel might be an option, if you wish to pick up the two Arcane Armor Training feats to remove the spell casting failure chance, but ehhh... It is just pointless in my opinion. I would rather use those feats for something else, like using some form of combination of cooperation feats with another melee fighter to gang up on enemies better.

I am curious what people think. Perhaps you would change something?

[BlueBangkok]

I strongly suggest taking 1 level of monk for crane style bonuses, unless you want to focus on offense exclusively.

[Schanez]

Originally posted by BlueBangkok:

I strongly suggest taking 1 level of monk for crane style bonuses, unless you want to focus on offense exclusively.

You would be giving up a level of Paladin, which means losing Aura of Righteousness, which in turn means losing DR5/evil as well as immunity to compulsion effects. You cannot use the Elven Curved Blade for Flurry of Blows, you do not benefit from the Improved Unarmed Strike, you do not benefit from the Wisdom to AC bonus, you do not benefit from the Stunning Fist. All of that to gain Crane Fighting Style, which gives you additional +1 to AC and lowers the penalty to -2 when fighting defensively.

I just do not find it a viable substitute for the DR, not to mention the other losses, like damage on Smite Evil, Divine Bond duration and other such. a Monk/Paladin might be an interesting concept for a purely punching build, although I would probably pick a Monk/Cleric for that, as it would be much less MAD.

[VoD]

"I am curious what people think. Perhaps you would change something?"

I would take 4 rogue levels for uncanny dodge (invaluable for a melee character unless you enjoy getting destroyed in combat round one or by annoying mobs that attack your flatfooted touch AC) and debilitating injury which is not as great as uncanny dodge but still nice to have. Also, 1 level of scaled fist will let you pick crane style for better defensive fighting and CHA mod on AC and also let's you use the +5 dodge AC monk robes, which will result in a higher AC than whatever you plan on doing.
+8 bracers of armor
+5 dodge ac robe + 5 magic vestment
+ whatever you get from dex
+ CHA on AC

[Schanez]

Originally posted by VoD:

"I am curious what people think. Perhaps you would change something?"

I would take 4 rogue levels for uncanny dodge (invaluable for a melee character unless you enjoy getting destroyed in combat round one or by annoying mobs that attack your flatfooted touch AC) and debilitating injury which is not as great as uncanny dodge but still nice to have. Also, 1 level of scaled fist will let you pick crane style for better defensive fighting and CHA mod on AC and also let's you use the +5 dodge AC monk robes, which will result in a higher AC than whatever you plan on doing.
+8 bracers of armor
+5 dodge ac robe + 5 magic vestment
+ whatever you get from dex
+ CHA on AC

I haven't read too much into Monks, as the class was never of much interest to me, so my information are based mostly on the Kingmaker wiki here, but don't they receive Wis to AC? I haven't looked into magical items later in the game, to avoid spoilers and stuff, but the +5 Monk robes is definitely something that gives the Monk dip credibility.

[VoD]

the scaled fist monk uses cha instead of wis, that goes well with paladin.
Yes you lose another 2 Pal levels and the high level stuff associated with it if you do what I said but the things you gain, you'll have almost for the entire game.I can't stress enough how important it is to not be flatfooted all the time for dex based melee chars. You're in for pain without uncanny dodge.

[Schanez]

Hmm... My question with the Scaled Fist is... Why would I still need Crane Style?

Robes of Protector, or whatever they are called give +5 Dodge Bonus.
Fighting Defensively with Crane Style gives you a +3 Dodge Bonus while forcing a -2 Attack penalty.

They overlap each other.

EDIT:
The moment I hit post... I realized that Dodge is one of the few typed bonuses that stacks.

[BlueBangkok]

Originally posted by Schanez:

Originally posted by BlueBangkok:

I strongly suggest taking 1 level of monk for crane style bonuses, unless you want to focus on offense exclusively.

You would be giving up a level of Paladin, which means losing Aura of Righteousness, which in turn means losing DR5/evil as well as immunity to compulsion effects. You cannot use the Elven Curved Blade for Flurry of Blows, you do not benefit from the Improved Unarmed Strike, you do not benefit from the Wisdom to AC bonus, you do not benefit from the Stunning Fist. All of that to gain Crane Fighting Style, which gives you additional +1 to AC and lowers the penalty to -2 when fighting defensively.

I just do not find it a viable substitute for the DR, not to mention the other losses, like damage on Smite Evil, Divine Bond duration and other such. a Monk/Paladin might be an interesting concept for a purely punching build, although I would probably pick a Monk/Cleric for that, as it would be much less MAD.

Hence why I said "unless you want to...". You can't combine monk with rogue levels without losing all of that but you can combine monk with paladin and 1 level of rogue/vivisectionist if you crave sneak attack that much and still get everything except holy champion, +6 divine weapon bond, and extra smite evil. Which you are not going to get anyways if you want any multi-class pala.

[Schanez]

Originally posted by BlueBangkok:

Originally posted by Schanez:

You would be giving up a level of Paladin, which means losing Aura of Righteousness, which in turn means losing DR5/evil as well as immunity to compulsion effects. You cannot use the Elven Curved Blade for Flurry of Blows, you do not benefit from the Improved Unarmed Strike, you do not benefit from the Wisdom to AC bonus, you do not benefit from the Stunning Fist. All of that to gain Crane Fighting Style, which gives you additional +1 to AC and lowers the penalty to -2 when fighting defensively.

I just do not find it a viable substitute for the DR, not to mention the other losses, like damage on Smite Evil, Divine Bond duration and other such. a Monk/Paladin might be an interesting concept for a purely punching build, although I would probably pick a Monk/Cleric for that, as it would be much less MAD.

Hence why I said "unless you want to...". You can't combine monk with rogue levels without losing all of that but you can combine monk with paladin and 1 level of rogue/vivisectionist if you crave sneak attack that much and still get everything except holy champion, +6 divine weapon bond, and extra smite evil. Which you are not going to get anyways if you want any multi-class pala.

I pick Rogue for the Weapon Finesse and Finesse Training most of all. Sneak Attack is just a bonus to that.

As VoD wrote, Scaled Fist seems like a decent dip for the Cha to AC bonus.

[BlueBangkok]

Originally posted by Schanez:

Originally posted by BlueBangkok:

Hence why I said "unless you want to...". You can't combine monk with rogue levels without losing all of that but you can combine monk with paladin and 1 level of rogue/vivisectionist if you crave sneak attack that much and still get everything except holy champion, +6 divine weapon bond, and extra smite evil. Which you are not going to get anyways if you want any multi-class pala.

I pick Rogue for the Weapon Finesse and Finesse Training most of all. Sneak Attack is just a bonus to that.

As VoD wrote, Scaled Fist seems like a decent dip for the Cha to AC bonus.

Yeah indeed it is.

[=[NK]= Col. Jack O'Neil]

You say you'll loose all that stuff for paladin, is that level 20? You know you won't reach 20 with a full party unless you use mods or cheese the xp options?

[CHAO$$$]

This looks pretty good. Splash 1 level of monk for crane style(+1AC, less penalty for defensive fighting) and crane wing (+4AC).

Monk also has some crazy crazy gear later on giving big bonuses to AC (a Kama and a robe allowing you to use full dex bonuses and dodge from charsima). You also get a bonus attack when using only the kama + robe (see monk bonus attack requirements) Which synergizes well with the paladin self weapon buffs.

You can probably also afford to drop strength to 8. By the time you need strength for weight requirements you should get dex+str belts.

[Super-XIX]

Spoiler, Finesse Training with an ECB does not give 1.5x Dex to damage in this game.

[Schanez]

Originally posted by The Superjew:

Spoiler, Finesse Training with an ECB does not give 1.5x Dex to damage in this game.

But it does give at least Dex to damage, that's something already :P

[Super-XIX]

Originally posted by Schanez:

Originally posted by The Superjew:

Spoiler, Finesse Training with an ECB does not give 1.5x Dex to damage in this game.

But it does give at least Dex to damage, that's something already :P

This is true, it's just less good than it is in pnp PF.

[Nachtmeister]

Originally posted by The Superjew:

Originally posted by Schanez:

But it does give at least Dex to damage, that's something already :P

This is true, it's just less good than it is in pnp PF.

Yeah. Not worth the feat for a Rogue (-ish) char.

1 Feat for +2 damage (1d6 --> 1d10) is normally okay, but you also go from one-handed to two-handed and so loose the up to +7 AC from a Shield (2 base + up to +5 magic) which is a bad tradeoff.

With a Rapier you have better gamestats.