Bard build - Advice needed

[Marneus]

Hello Gentlemen and Gentleladies, I was trying to build a Bard toward Melee combat (Ranged is easier i know) and lost myself in my thoughts. For now, i have established that a DEX build is unavoidable (as anything medium-heavy armor would impede casting) but I have a hard time settling on something concrete.

One easy path would be : Weapon Finesse, Slashing Grace with one light weapon and a light shield. I could also go toward TWF... Or multiclass a bit into Rogue to get some additionnal damage i could be missing otherwise but then i would loose a bit on the chants part... I don't know, too many possibilities !!!

So yeah, if you have good Bard builds, any advice is welcomed :)

[Sevitan]

One way to get around dex to damage is to use Agile Weapons. There are plenty in the game, and there is a +5 Dueling Sword guarded by a Lich. You can save a feat on Slashing Grace, but you will need exotic weapon dueling sword.
That way you can use a shield or go for two weapons. There is at least one +4 agile Kukri for off-hand use.

This is silly, but you could also take 3 rogue levels to get dex to damage for an Elven Curve Blade, there a few decent ones in late game.

[Yaldabaoth]

Bard 1
Rogue 3 (daggers are good)
Bard 10 more
Arcane Trickster rest

Bard songs become less effective the higher you get. Going from +1 to +2 is a 100% increase, 2->3 only 50% and so on. Therefore not that worthwhile.

[Midnight]

What is it you really want from the bard class though?

Bard has no melee defences whatsover and uses arcane casting meaning that if you want to cast in combat you will provoke a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ of additional attacks from enemies around you and the spellcasting will cost you all of the attacks for the round anyway.

If you multiclass to pad the hole in your build then you will hinder your already slow spellcasting progression even further.

You're not much of a bard at that point. You just have a somewhat weak persistent buffs and subpar melee damage and defences. But you will get a decent amount of skillpoints I guess.

[Wendrig]

i play an bard as my Main and i am happy with him, i got tim to decent AC and love his Buffs and Spells. Sure hes not an Damage Dealer but he provides good Skills, Buffs and damm that Charisma for Talking Quests is awesome.

[wendigo211]

Try a Thundercaller 16/Bronze Dragon Disciple 4. Start as an Angelkin Aasimar (+2 STR and CHA), with attributes: STR 18, DEX 16, CON 12, INT 10, WIS 8, CHA 16. As you level up you increase DEX at 4, 8 and 12, and STR the rest of the way. You level as a Bard from 1-8, then take your 4 DD levels and finish off with Bard. For feats you want to take Lingering Performance, all the dual wield feats, Shield Bash, Shield Mastery and Bashing Finish, Wings, Weapon Focus and Improved Critical with Rapier. Take Blind Fight with your DD bonus feat. You'll have a couple feats left over.

You lose some song progression, but only 1 caster level. DD gives you +3 natural armor, a bite attack and +4 to strength, so you have to decide whether it's worth the trade. Anyway, you'll have a good enough AC to tank with Mirror Image and Displacement (or Greater Invisibility), and 8 attacks per round with Haste.

It should be pretty playable, but the first few levels will be rough. Bards have crappy 1st level spells, and you won't find a decent shield for a while. It will get a lot easier once you can cast Mirror Image and you should be pretty solid by the end of the second act.

[Shadenuat]

You'll achieve what you want better with Eldritch Scoundrel.

[bkgamingacc]

I wouldnt multiclass a thundercaller .
The DC of the thundercall is 10+ 1/2 Bard Lvls + Cha Modifier.
And i would pick spell focus and greater spell focus evoc as it increases the thundercall DC . It would land much more often.

i would make 1 scaled fist / 15 Bard / 4 DD instead or a Pure Thundercaller with alot of extra performances.

[wendigo211]

Originally posted by bkgamingacc:

I wouldnt multiclass a thundercaller .
The DC of the thundercall is 10+ 1/2 Bard Lvls + Cha Modifier.
And i would pick spell focus and greater spell focus evoc as it increases the thundercall DC . It would land much more often.

Even without the stun, I still prefer the Thundercaller to Base bard, While Inspire competence is occasionally useful, I'd still prefer the ability to use songs to do damage (which should be augmented by the draconic bloodline, but I'm not sure if that's working). The other base bard stuff (Facinate etc.) is garbage.

i would make 1 scaled fist / 15 Bard / 4 DD instead or a Pure Thundercaller with alot of extra performances.

Don't like Scaled Fist for this one, you're losing another caster level and song progression for no real gain. The AC bonus is matched by the loss of using a shield, and the extra attack from Flurry would be matched by Bashing Finish (although you get flurry earlier). I suppose you pick up a feat and could grab Crane Style, still I'd rather not lose the level.

[bkgamingacc]

The reason i would take scaled fist is CHA bonus to AC also contributes to Touch AC which is pretty hard to get and is very valuable end game. I can get the lost Armor AC being naked from Bracers of armor or mage armor spell or a monk robe plus i get CHA modifier added to AC.. There are many items that has plus CHA adding even more armor. Yes i would pick Crane style as soon as possible. I still get shield armor bonus with the shield spell. I will lose shield wall bonus thou.

When all add up i would end up with at least 8 more AC to both Touch and Normal AC, and couple free feats.No need to get TWF and Shield Bash. Flurry will replace it. Thats a gain. All i lose is replacable, other then 1 caster lvl .

I might even consider getting 2 paladin lvls for better saves if i want to be more tanky.
I would also pick Archeologist to get uncanny dodge and advanced rogue talents.
All depends on personal preference. I would pick more AC and being tanky over 1 caster lvl .
You pick 1 more caster lvl. Both are fine builds.

[wendigo211]

Originally posted by bkgamingacc:

The reason i would take scaled fist is CHA bonus to AC also contributes to Touch AC which is pretty hard to get and is very valuable end game. I can get the lost Armor AC being naked from Bracers of armor or mage armor spell or a monk robe plus i get CHA modifier added to AC.. There are many items that has plus CHA adding even more armor. Yes i would pick Crane style as soon as possible. I still get shield armor bonus with the shield spell. I will lose shield wall bonus thou.

You can't cast the Shield spell as a Bard, although I suppose you can have an Alchemist with Infusion cast it for you. I would also be looking at bracers over armor. Particularly since you can enchant them further with Magic Vestments. Still the +5 spiked shield from Rushlight with shield focus would give you the same AC as a 16 CHA Scaled Fist with a +8 to CHA from an item.

If you use the shield spell you would get an additional 4 AC, but without it you're looking at the same AC. Of course you are correct that Touch AC is at a premium at end game.

There are things I like about your build. But playing a Sorcerer in my current playthrough vs. a Wizard in my first playthrough, I'm really feeling that 1 level delay in getting my next level of spells.

Anyway I am keeping an eye on these Bard builds, since I'm going to add a merc Bard for what happens at the House. If nothing else my party could use a +4 to AB, damage and AC (using lingering performance to stack songs)

[bkgamingacc]

I will have around 24 CHA getting Cha instead of Str at lvl up and wearing CHA enchanting items.. Thats +4 more AC and another 4 from Shield obtained from alchemist or items.. Thats how i came up with 8 more AC.
I would also pick halfling for +1 size AC, +1 To hit and cautious fighter.
I can afford not to upgrade str or dex since i dont use twf with -2 penalty or dex req.

Archeologist is an alternative build. If you want a party tank, who is more selfcentered pick that one. You can get oppurtunist rogue advanced skill which deserves its own build, it is that nice of a feat.
If you want more support pick default bard or thundercaller.

1 caster lvl for full casters i would almost never give up but for bard i personally think is not that important. Their spell casting is only good for support. Their save or sux spells DC are not realiable with

Spell DC of 10 + spell lvl + CHA modifier

Which is not effected by caster lvl anyway
Their highest spell being 6 lvl and 16 CHA as a bard they are likely to fail more then they succeed . For party and self buffs 1 lvl caster lvl absence and delay i can live with.

2 paladin lvls + picking archeologist and even 1 vivisectionist for mutagen and access to shield spell makes my version the main tank losing half the party support in process.
Picking normal bard no paladin no vivisectionist lvls makes it a good offtank with decent party support.
Your version is a good support and a decent off tank.

All fine for their assigned roles.

[OnlyOffensive]

you probably dont want to focus too much on damage, melee bard makes solid melee annoyance with mirror images. There are quite a few decent light shields and very good light armors, basically for bards.

[Amoc]

I know everyone says it's a noob trap, but I made an Eldritch Scoundrel to replace the bard because I couldn't get it to work for melee.

At level 13 my Eldritch Scoundrel gets close to 40 AC with lvl 1 shield spell and is dual-wielding daggers at a +18 and +17 (I think) attack. She's practically impossible to hit with both Blur and Mirror Image running and almost keeps up to Amiri in damage.

She doesn't group-buff quite as well as the Bard, but she works as a big-dps frontliner and that's what I was looking for.

[TehArgz]

I dunno, I haven't had any trouble making Linzi into a survivable melee fighter as a pure bard once she got mirror image. Sure, her damage is trash, but she can do basically everything else. It should only be easier with a mercenary, with the understanding that you won't be doing much damage. With 4-5 other party members providing large damage numbers, I haven't found that to be a problem.

[Amoc]

Linzi is okayish...useable. As a melee fighter I'd say she's pretty pointless since she'll be doing Valerie levels of damage. The only thing that seemed workable for melee was to MC her into a knife master for decent sneak attacks.

As a bard, I think she's far better to keep as a ranged support caster, but even then she sort of sucks at it with her limited spell progression and awkward ability point distribution.