New Racial DLC: Slightly Disappointing

[GrandMajora]

First of all, let me clarify that I don't hate Tieflings. If anything, I'm actually very interested in Pathfinder's Tieflings, since they seem so much more diverse than D&D's version.

But making them the first DLC race, just because they were frequently requested is a bit disappointing.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Tieflings weren't even on the original poll to begin with, were they? I thought the choices were Aasimar, Dhampir, and Genasi?

So why did they decide to give the first pick to a race who wasn't even on the list, instead of going with the second runner up on the original votes?


Tieflings and Aasimar are kind of cool, I guess, but I think they're suffering from the effects of over exposure. At some point, they stop becoming cool, because we've seen them in action so many times.

But Genasi and Dhampir are something fresh and new. To the best of my knowledge, the only place you can play a Genasi in video game format is Neverwinter Nights 2. And I never knew that D&D / Pathfinder even had Dhampirs, until I found out the developers of this game were holding a popularity vote.


To reiterate, I don't hate Tieflings and Aasimar, I've just gotten bored of seeing them. And it would be fun to see a game that provides us with the opportunity to explore the lesser known races that are available in the Pen and Paper version of the game.

[Sotanaht]

Originally posted by GrandMajora:

Originally posted by jutschi78:

Well in pnp a DM may restrict your race-choice. I do that usually to the core-races and maby aasimar and genasi. All other are to strange, powerful or be seen as evil by most humans, that there make no sense in a pbp game.

Anf here too. Why should Amandi hire goblins, orks, drorw, dhampirs or other dark races? Members of thore races would not be tolerated by most, especially in nobility...

So tieflings are quite questionalable for me. But everyone who likes them, should get happy with them. It´s only my opinion, but everyone should get happy with this game in his own way.

Plus: Do you really blame the dev for giving a favorite race by most gamers? I think it makes sense to listen to the majority of the players...

But for me it´s the class, wichs annoys me. Why kinectists? There are not from the core rulebooks (core, adv. player guide, ultimate magic+combat).

I think an oracle as an spontanous divine full-caster would be nice. Or witches...

Well, maybe many player think they are supercool - like the warlock in dnd...

That line of reasoning falls apart the second you decide to include Tieflings as a playable option. Goblins, Orcs and Drow are too controversial, but putting a literal hellspawn in charge of your country is perfectly okay.

Even though the lore surrounding Tieflings is always about how they are feared and mistrusted by everyone around them. Why are they the ones who get to walk around in public, while all the other monsters have to stay on the sidelines?

Sure, Orcs and Drow might be evil, but at least they don't look like they're going to rip out your soul and devour it in front of your family.


As for the kineticist, I'm happy that they decided to include something that isn't from the core book. Like I said in my OP, I'm tired of seeing just the core race and class options. There is a whole world of possibilities available in the P&P version, and I'm glad to see games that finally decide to explore those options.

Because Tiefling's aren't "literal hellspawn". That would be more the realm of half-demons. Tieflings are "your great, great, great, great, great, great grandfather might have sold his soul or something".

There's a difference between being feared and mistrusted, and being hated and murderhoboed, tieflings are still mostly human

[GrandMajora]

Originally posted by Sotanaht:

Because Tiefling's aren't "literal hellspawn". That would be more the realm of half-demons. Tieflings are "your great, great, great, great, great, great grandfather might have sold his soul or something".

There's a difference between being feared and mistrusted, and being hated and murderhoboed, tieflings are still mostly human

No, that version of Tieflings stems from the more recent editions of D&D. You can actually become a Tiefling in 4th and 5th edition through infernal pacts. But Pathfinder works off an older model, in which Tieflings were the progeny of a fiend and a mortal, or a Tiefling and somebody else, I guess.

And there are many different sub races of them.

One of which is the Qlippoth-Spawn, who's birth carries a 100% fatality rate for the mother. They also have a physical appearance like something out of a Lovecraft story

Or the Kyton-Spawn, who look like one of their ancestors decided to sleep with Pin Head.

And the Rakshasa-Spawn, who are straight up Furry Tieflings in the sense that they look like anthropomorphic animals.

Like I said, the Pathfinder's version of Tieflings are far more interesting than D&D, since the later has chosen to restrict them to being members of Devil stock. And while I don't hate the Tieflings, I was hoping that the first DLC race would be something different for a change.

[AzureTheGamerKobold]

Frankly they shouldn't have added the asasimar without the teifling so i do feel like they should have been added as free DLC... also who the hell asked for a kineticist? most of us were asking orarcle and witch class from advanced players guide... it feels VERY odd they chose to add such a weird oddball class instead.

The Tiefling i get and i do want them as they are probably the most non-human like race we will ever get... but frankly i'm more annoyed with the class choice. I want my divine sorcerer... and it looks like at this point we'll have to have some modder add it...

[GrandMajora]

Originally posted by Kinja:

Except you're missing a point here when you talk about playable monsters. They don't fit at all with the story of the game. Who in their right mind would make a kobold or a troll ruler over a kingdom? It's not even about alignment in particular, it's about basic intelligence. The whole premise of the game is that the Aldori Swordlords are trying to set up a ruler in the Stolen Lands that will back them in their bid for independence and be a continued ally. How would putting a stupid goblin or kobold on the throne make any sense?

It's basically why you have Nok-Nok as a companion but you can't be a Nok-Nok yourself. I'd be all for them allowing recruitable monster companions, but not for them letting you actually play as one, at least not in the current story of the campaign.

The game makes it pretty clear early on that the Sword Lords care more about bringing the Stolen Lands under control, than they do about who's the one leading things.

For evidence of this, I would like to point out the scene where you track Tartuccio down to the tree and encounter one of Aldori's men. If you question him about how the Gnome managed to fool everybody, he makes a subtle remark about how Gnomes may not be taken very seriously among society. But Tartuccio's credentials seemed to check out alright, so they were willing to overlook it.

And speaking of Gnomes, let's talk about the Bleaching. This is new to me, because I don't believe it exists in D&D, but apparently Gnomes who fall into stagnation and stop looking for new experiences succumb to a rapid decline of health and vibrancy?

I can think of few ways to speed this along faster than by settling down and becoming a monarch of a chosen region. Even if it does happen to be teeming with fey creatures. The Sword Lords are willing to entrust the stability of the nation to a person who can pack up and leave at any moment, and who's life literally depends on the pursuit of entertainment.

And if you question Jamandi about who gets the position during the opening scene, she tells everybody gathered that it will ultimately be up to us (the people) to decide who is worthy enough to lead.


Half Orcs are another race who's ability to lead a nation might come under scrutiny. For one thing, they have much shorter lifespans than humans, rarely exceeding 75 years of age. And you have future heirs to worry about. What noble family in their right mind is going to sully their bloodline by mixing it with orcish blood?

Such breeding may be tolerated among the primitive tribesmen of the barbarian hordes. But the aristocratic elite have far higher standards to abide by. Unless you plan to marry a peasant and become the laughing stock of the nobility, I don't see a Half Orc serving any better than their pure blooded counterpart.

------------------------------

Three months to bring down the Stag Lord, who is terrorizing the good people of The Stolen Lands seems like plenty of time to earn their trust and prove that not all monsters are brainless savages.

But again, as I pointed out earlier, you don't need to prove yourself a virtuous hero, because the game fully allows you to go the evil route. If you are chaotic evil, you don't get a statue erected in your town square. You get bodies impaled on spikes, or tied to wooden posts and left to rot.

If you're lawful evil, you get an oppressive, totalitarian regime as your guardsmen ruthlessly keep the peasants in line.

And if you're neutral evil, you get a bunch of thugs, who harass the peasant folk just for the hell of it.


It doesn't matter if monsters aren't beloved champions of the people, because the game doesn't force you to play as one. If you want to be an evil overlord who slaughtered the Stag Lord like a stuck pig, and then took his crown for yourself, you are fully capable of doing so.

[GrandMajora]

Originally posted by AzureTheGamerKobold:

Frankly they shouldn't have added the asasimar without the teifling so i do feel like they should have been added as free DLC... also who the hell asked for a kineticist? most of us were asking orarcle and witch class from advanced players guide... it feels VERY odd they chose to add such a weird oddball class instead.

The Tiefling i get and i do want them as they are probably the most non-human like race we will ever get... but frankly i'm more annoyed with the class choice. I want my divine sorcerer... and it looks like at this point we'll have to have some modder add it...

I thought Inquisitor was the Divine Sorcerer?

They get to spontaneously cast divine magic, after all.

[solthusx]

Orcales are mechanically closer to being the divine sorcerer equivalent than Inquisitors. In addition to spontaneous divine casting and Charisma as a casting stat, they also have Orcale Mysteries that are sorta similar to Sorcerer bloodlines.

[Zaltys]

Originally posted by GrandMajora:

Half Orcs are another race who's ability to lead a nation might come under scrutiny.

Now that you mention it... Kassil Aldori is half orc. The swordlords clearly don't care that much about race, if one of their leaders is willing to adopt a half-orc into the family.

'Monster' races might raise a few eyebrows in the court, but I think they'd be mostly okay with it. Hobgoblins, ratfolk, and tengu would definitely be accepted. Latter two are common in human cities (though tengu tend to end up living in slums), and hobgoblins have kingdoms of their own and are considered mostly 'civilized'.

Goblin as a ruler, though? That'd be a hard sell.

[Termagant]

Are there any information about when the wildcards dlc will be released?

[RJM]

It's mentioned on the news post about the DLC. Without going and checking I believe it's 6th December.

[Procrastinating Gamer]

Originally posted by GrandMajora:

Originally posted by AzureTheGamerKobold:

Frankly they shouldn't have added the asasimar without the teifling so i do feel like they should have been added as free DLC... also who the hell asked for a kineticist? most of us were asking orarcle and witch class from advanced players guide... it feels VERY odd they chose to add such a weird oddball class instead.

The Tiefling i get and i do want them as they are probably the most non-human like race we will ever get... but frankly i'm more annoyed with the class choice. I want my divine sorcerer... and it looks like at this point we'll have to have some modder add it...

I thought Inquisitor was the Divine Sorcerer?

They get to spontaneously cast divine magic, after all.

Inquisitors are 6th level casters, Oracles (the "divine sorcerer" that Azure is referring to) get the full nine levels.

Originally posted by GrandMajora:

Originally posted by Sotanaht:

Because Tiefling's aren't "literal hellspawn". That would be more the realm of half-demons. Tieflings are "your great, great, great, great, great, great grandfather might have sold his soul or something".

There's a difference between being feared and mistrusted, and being hated and murderhoboed, tieflings are still mostly human

No, that version of Tieflings stems from the more recent editions of D&D. You can actually become a Tiefling in 4th and 5th edition through infernal pacts. But Pathfinder works off an older model, in which Tieflings were the progeny of a fiend and a mortal, or a Tiefling and somebody else, I guess.

And there are many different sub races of them.

One of which is the Qlippoth-Spawn, who's birth carries a 100% fatality rate for the mother. They also have a physical appearance like something out of a Lovecraft story

Or the Kyton-Spawn, who look like one of their ancestors decided to sleep with Pin Head.

And the Rakshasa-Spawn, who are straight up Furry Tieflings in the sense that they look like anthropomorphic animals.

Like I said, the Pathfinder's version of Tieflings are far more interesting than D&D, since the later has chosen to restrict them to being members of Devil stock. And while I don't hate the Tieflings, I was hoping that the first DLC race would be something different for a change.

They are created via fiendish influence rather than direct fiendish heritage. The different varieties of tiefling represent where that influence came from. Someone who studied demons a lot might have ended up with the building he conducted his research in saturated with Abyssal energy, humans spending any length of time there could end up being, essentially, irradiated with it and any child they concieve has the potential to be a demon-spawn tiefling, with that potential staying in the blood through the generations until something triggered it.

Someone who entered into a contract with devils could similarly be "irradiated" and result in a line with the "devil-spawn tiefling" recessive gene (it's not called that but I'm trying to keep a metaphor going).

And so-on. Any kind of metaphysically-significant interaction with fiends on a larger scale beyond just the occasional summoning that adventurers might do, has the chance of introducing that influence to the bloodline. Then it just takes something down the line to trigger it.

I know I've read that stuff somewhere, Blood of Fiends most likely, but I'm on holiday so don't have access to my books at the moment.

[Cutlass Jack]

Originally posted by GrandMajora:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Tieflings weren't even on the original poll to begin with, were they? I thought the choices were Aasimar, Dhampir, and Genasi?

So why did they decide to give the first pick to a race who wasn't even on the list, instead of going with the second runner up on the original votes?

I can answer this question, since back then I asked why Tieflings weren't on the poll. The answer is simple. Tieflings required way more art resources than anything else on the poll and they couldn't devote the time to do them right back then. Horns, tails, etc is way more work than say, an odd skin tone.

Had they been on the poll I'm sure they would have won hands down. They were highly demanded. Aasimar won because its the next best thing.

Which brings us to the DLC. Since it is a DLC they can justify doing all the work it takes to do them right. Personally I couldn't be more excited for the DLC. I love Tieflings, and I love getting a new romancable female companion.

That said, I wouldn't mind seeing Dhampir, Genasi or more monstrous options added too some day.

[GrandMajora]

Originally posted by Cutlass Jack:

That said, I wouldn't mind seeing Dhampir, Genasi or more monstrous options added too some day.

I guess we have to wait a while longer for the CLEARLY VAMPIRE portrait in character creation to get a race that would actually be appropriate for them. :-(

[Cutlass Jack]

Originally posted by GrandMajora:

Originally posted by Cutlass Jack:

That said, I wouldn't mind seeing Dhampir, Genasi or more monstrous options added too some day.

I guess we have to wait a while longer for the CLEARLY VAMPIRE portrait in character creation to get a race that would actually be appropriate for them. :-(

No need to wait. Sorcerer/Magus Undead bloodline could make good use of that.

[Blackdragon]

Originally posted by Cutlass Jack:

Originally posted by GrandMajora:

I guess we have to wait a while longer for the CLEARLY VAMPIRE portrait in character creation to get a race that would actually be appropriate for them. :-(

No need to wait. Sorcerer/Magus Undead bloodline could make good use of that.

Or just mod yourself the Undead trait and enjoy actually being undead.

[Blackdragon]

Originally posted by GrandMajora:

Originally posted by AzureTheGamerKobold:

Frankly they shouldn't have added the asasimar without the teifling so i do feel like they should have been added as free DLC... also who the hell asked for a kineticist? most of us were asking orarcle and witch class from advanced players guide... it feels VERY odd they chose to add such a weird oddball class instead.

The Tiefling i get and i do want them as they are probably the most non-human like race we will ever get... but frankly i'm more annoyed with the class choice. I want my divine sorcerer... and it looks like at this point we'll have to have some modder add it...

I thought Inquisitor was the Divine Sorcerer?

They get to spontaneously cast divine magic, after all.

Not full 9th level casting though, only up to 6th level.

Oracle is Pathfinder's Favored Soul, iirc. That class ruled in Mask of the Betrayer.