New Racial DLC: Slightly Disappointing

[GrandMajora]

First of all, let me clarify that I don't hate Tieflings. If anything, I'm actually very interested in Pathfinder's Tieflings, since they seem so much more diverse than D&D's version.

But making them the first DLC race, just because they were frequently requested is a bit disappointing.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Tieflings weren't even on the original poll to begin with, were they? I thought the choices were Aasimar, Dhampir, and Genasi?

So why did they decide to give the first pick to a race who wasn't even on the list, instead of going with the second runner up on the original votes?


Tieflings and Aasimar are kind of cool, I guess, but I think they're suffering from the effects of over exposure. At some point, they stop becoming cool, because we've seen them in action so many times.

But Genasi and Dhampir are something fresh and new. To the best of my knowledge, the only place you can play a Genasi in video game format is Neverwinter Nights 2. And I never knew that D&D / Pathfinder even had Dhampirs, until I found out the developers of this game were holding a popularity vote.


To reiterate, I don't hate Tieflings and Aasimar, I've just gotten bored of seeing them. And it would be fun to see a game that provides us with the opportunity to explore the lesser known races that are available in the Pen and Paper version of the game.

[Babbles]

Agreed - Harrim is so different from Khlegar he is fresh, but another Neshka? Will take some work not to make another Tiefling Thief character.

[GrandMajora]

In fact, why is that, exactly? There are loads of playable races that the Pen and Paper game allows the players to choose from when creating their character. But when it comes to video games, they are almost universally restricted to the same, basic races from the core selection: Human, Elf, Half Elf, Dwarf, Halfling, Gnome, Half Orc.

When they do choose to branch out from the core stock, it is once again almost universally consisting of Drow, Tieflings, Dragonborn and Aasimar.


Meanwhile, races such as Kobolds, Githyanki, Hobgoblins, Githzerai, (pure) Orcs, Gnolls, Lizardfolk, Genasi, est. are almost universally ignored. In a game where you have the full ability to make an evil alignment character and conduct yourself accordingly throughout the story, one would think that having the option to play a literal monster would be a standard practice?


Genasi, Deep Gnomes, Gray Orcs, Gray Dwarves and Yuan-Ti Purebloods are all playable in Neverwinters Nights 2.

Shadar-Kai, Warforged and Deep Gnomes are all playable in D&D Online.

However, these are the ONLY samples of the entire library of D&D and Pathfinder video games that I know of which have ever provided them as a playable option. If you want to play as one anywhere else, you have to stick to pen and paper.

[jutschi78]

Well in pnp a DM may restrict your race-choice. I do that usually to the core-races and maby aasimar and genasi. All other are to strange, powerful or be seen as evil by most humans, that there make no sense in a pbp game.

Anf here too. Why should Amandi hire goblins, orks, drorw, dhampirs or other dark races? Members of thore races would not be tolerated by most, especially in nobility...

So tieflings are quite questionalable for me. But everyone who likes them, should get happy with them. It´s only my opinion, but everyone should get happy with this game in his own way.

Plus: Do you really blame the dev for giving a favorite race by most gamers? I think it makes sense to listen to the majority of the players...

But for me it´s the class, wichs annoys me. Why kinectists? There are not from the core rulebooks (core, adv. player guide, ultimate magic+combat).

I think an oracle as an spontanous divine full-caster would be nice. Or witches...

Well, maybe many player think they are supercool - like the warlock in dnd...

[khinra]

Im more surprised that Hellknight isnt made the first class since that was the only stretch goal that wasnt met, I would think that would be the first one to be made.
I know it is a prestige class but still...
Tiefling is fine with me, thats probably the race I would be most interested in playing anyways :)

[ArchmageXin]

Originally posted by GrandMajora:

In fact, why is that, exactly? There are loads of playable races that the Pen and Paper game allows the players to choose from when creating their character. But when it comes to video games, they are almost universally restricted to the same, basic races from the core selection: Human, Elf, Half Elf, Dwarf, Halfling, Gnome, Half Orc.

When they do choose to branch out from the core stock, it is once again almost universally consisting of Drow, Tieflings, Dragonborn and Aasimar.


Meanwhile, races such as Kobolds, Githyanki, Hobgoblins, Githzerai, (pure) Orcs, Gnolls, Lizardfolk, Genasi, est. are almost universally ignored. In a game where you have the full ability to make an evil alignment character and conduct yourself accordingly throughout the story, one would think that having the option to play a literal monster would be a standard practice?


Genasi, Gray Orcs and Yuan-Ti Purebloods are all playable in Neverwinters Nights 2.

Shadar-Kai, Warforged and Deep Gnomes are all playable in D&D Online.

However, these are the ONLY samples of the entire library of D&D and Pathfinder video games that I know of which have ever provided them as a playable option. If you want to play as one anywhere else, you have to stick to pen and paper.

Well lets be honest, players choose race that are familiar to them. Human, Orc, Elf has pretty much dominated modern fantasy. Even Mcnoobs who never tried D&D probably saw Lord of Rings or World of Warcraft and can relate.

GithY and GithZ aren't even native to the material plane or most fantasy materials. Hell, they aren't even in most basic player handbooks. And very few people would pick Kobolds, pure orcs or Gnolls in the first place, and some of them might not even be in the right setting...imagine a succubus Assassin or a Baleor Death Kight want to apply for the Barony...

Exotic races are a nice thing to have, but not necessary. Especially given the humongous amount of bugs this game have, I the Devs would have scant time to bring out the truly exotics.

[Procrastinating Gamer]

Originally posted by GrandMajora:

In fact, why is that, exactly? There are loads of playable races that the Pen and Paper game allows the players to choose from when creating their character. But when it comes to video games, they are almost universally restricted to the same, basic races from the core selection: Human, Elf, Half Elf, Dwarf, Halfling, Gnome, Half Orc.

When they do choose to branch out from the core stock, it is once again almost universally consisting of Drow, Tieflings, Dragonborn and Aasimar.

For the first paragraph, it's mainly because those are the races from the core book, they're usually seen as the "stock standard" races because of that.

As for the second paragraph, no idea on that. Although for a Pathfinder-focused game then Drow and Dragonborn would never be on that list - Drow because they're closer to the original design of the race where they're almost universally evil, Dragonborn because those are copyrighted by Wizards of the Coast so will only appear in DnD.

Meanwhile, races such as Kobolds, Githyanki, Hobgoblins, Githzerai, (pure) Orcs, Gnolls, Lizardfolk, Genasi, est. are almost universally ignored. In a game where you have the full ability to make an evil alignment character and conduct yourself accordingly throughout the story, one would think that having the option to play a literal monster would be a standard practice?

Some of them being overlooked is a pain, I agree, but they have to prioritise where their development time is spent (at least with smaller studios like Owlcat) so they have to stick to a handful after the core book races.

Beyond that, though - Pathfinder's elemental races aren't called Genasi (since that term's also WotC-copyrighted). Collectively they're called genie-kin, but they're not lumped together usually like Genasi are, they're just listed as four separate races (Ifrit, Undine, Sylph, and Oread). Githyanki and Githzerai are also a WotC-copyrighted race so will never appear in a non-DnD game. Finally, Lizardfolk and Gnolls don't have any rules for being used as playable races in Pathfinder (partly because the former doesn't even exist on Golarion, closest equivalent is serpentfolk who, again, don't have any rules for use as a player-character race).

I will agree with you on Kobolds, Hobgoblins, and Orcs, though.

Genasi, Gray Orcs and Yuan-Ti Purebloods are all playable in Neverwinters Nights 2.

Shadar-Kai, Warforged and Deep Gnomes are all playable in D&D Online.

Yuan-Ti, Warforged, and Shadar-Kai are also under WotC copyright so will never be in a Pathfinder product. Only one I can think of off the top of my head with a counterpart in Pathfinder would be Androids.

However, these are the ONLY samples of the entire library of D&D and Pathfinder video games that I know of which have ever provided them as a playable option. If you want to play as one anywhere else, you have to stick to pen and paper.

This is the first Pathfinder video game. This is the full list of non-core races in Pathfinder that has rules for use as a playable race.[aonprd.com] If it's not on that list, then it will never appear as a playable option in a Pathfinder game.

EDIT: Oh; the Green Martians may not be appearing either; their rules come from one of the comics which was a crossover between the Pathfinder Iconics and a bunch of old fantasy franchises like Conan, Red Sonja, Tarzan, John Carter, etc. So there's probably some licensing issues involved if they ever wanted to use them in a Pathfinder video game.

EDIT2: Actually; that bit about "if it's not on that list, then it's not gonna be in a Pathfinder video game"? That kind of applies to that whole site - everything on there is the stuff Paizo made themselves for the game and the stuff they have legal control over (ie; they don't need to organise additional licensing deals with other companies to use them). So if it's not on that site then either it's not something made by Paizo or it's something from a book that's come out in the last month or so that Blake Davis hasn't added to the site yet. It's the official reference document for the game, BTW.

[Zone_Ghost_Hero]

I would love to see other races available instead of the tieflings (I have a modded game going with only lizard people and I love it). To be honest, I think they went that (tieflings) route because it would be easier to make/animate being that they only have to make a few modifications. Heck, there are already a few models of humanoids with horns in game. As a side note, I have the kickstarter perks for the next dlc or so but I'd be willing to give a little extra for something in ADDITION to tieflings (which is almost lazy) like the ratfolk (models in game already), werewolves (models in game already), Cat People (Models in game already, kind of) Sylphs, Fey creatures (some models in game already), and so on. What do you guys think?

[wendigo211]

Githyanki/zerai, Duergar and a few other races probably haven't been included in many D&D games because they're psionic races, and the only D&D CRPGS with psionics have been Dark Sun: Shattered Lands and Wake of the Ravager*. Arguably, the one from NWN2 should have been a Psychic Warrior instead of a Cleric with no deity.

It would be nice to see some more settings add in some non-standard races. I know a lot of people like to see Drow, but I'd rather see Avariel or Sea Elves.

From a purely mechanical standpoint, we need some divine PrCs. The arcanes got all the love in this game.

*=I've run a few Psions in 3.x campaigns and they're so much better than Vancian Casters that I don't get why they aren't more popular. No keeping track of a separate list of spells known and spells memorized; crossing them out as you cast them and having to rewrite them when you rest. You just keep track of the powers known and the Psi Points with a pair of d10s (As both a player and a DM this is awesome). Heck, the augment system is great too (you get to choose how powerful your abilities are). The classes are also better balanced in terms of proficiencies and BAB progression.

[ArchmageXin]

"The Arcane got all the love"....sure, if you didn't pick a wizard. Their spell selection suck monster balls.

Plus Sorcerer got CHA which can go into diplomacy/Intimdation, which is far more useful than a few INT checks.

[thefollowingcharacters]

The point of a purchasable DLC is to sell it. Tiefling is widely known and a popular race. That will sell. Something not as well known will more likely be dismissed, and not sell.

[wendigo211]

Originally posted by ArchmageXin:

"The Arcane got all the love"....sure, if you didn't pick a wizard. Their spell selection suck monster balls.

I did a Wizard for my first run and I'm using another one for current run (Unfair difficulty), yeah the spell selection could be better, but it's a hell of a lot better than what the Druids and Clerics got.

[Procrastinating Gamer]

Originally posted by wendigo211:

Githyanki/zerai, Duergar and a few other races probably haven't been included in many D&D games because they're psionic races, and the only D&D CRPGS with psionics have been Dark Sun: Shattered Lands and Wake of the Ravager*. Arguably, the one from NWN2 should have been a Psychic Warrior instead of a Cleric with no deity.

It would be nice to see some more settings add in some non-standard races. I know a lot of people like to see Drow, but I'd rather see Avariel or Sea Elves.

From a purely mechanical standpoint, we need some divine PrCs. The arcanes got all the love in this game.

*=I've run a few Psions in 3.x campaigns and they're so much better than Vancian Casters that I don't get why they aren't more popular. No keeping track of a separate list of spells known and spells memorized; crossing them out as you cast them and having to rewrite them when you rest. You just keep track of the powers known and the Psi Points with a pair of d10s (As both a player and a DM this is awesome). Heck, the augment system is great too (you get to choose how powerful your abilities are). The classes are also better balanced in terms of proficiencies and BAB progression.

Psionics are also something that Paizo don't want to use in Pathfinder. They have their own psychic classes called the "Occult Classes" published in Occult Adventures.

There are third-party rules for psionics for Pathfinder but because they were published by someone else, Paizo would have to negotiate a licensing deal with Dreamscarred Press to use them.

Also, as I mentioned Githyanki/zerai are copyrighted by Wizards of the Coast (so Paizo also can't use them without licensing them), Avariel are as well, Drow are handled differently in Golarion that makes them very ill-suited to be a playable race (they're basically going back to their "all Drow are evil" origin).

As I said before; if it's not on the Archives of Nethys, the official system reference document for Pathfinder, then Paizo does not have legal access to it so cannot use it in a video game based on Pathfinder. Remember; Pathfinder is not Dungeons & Dragons when it comes to what can and cannot be used in video games based on either property.

[solthusx]

Just like to point out the Warforged were playable in DDO because DDO is set in Eberron and Warforged are not only a core race there, they are also frequently seen as the setting's unofficial mascot.

I'd also note that Drow could be workable player characters in campaigns exclusively designed for evil characters but not campaigns like Kingmaker where you can be any alignment. The same is also true for the other 'always evil' races.

That being said, there are some rare cases like the one Succubus in Wrath of the Righteous who has gone from Chaotic Evil to Chaotic Neutral and can potentially go all the way to Chaotic Good depending on her interaction with the players. Note that her redemption involves direct action from a deity (Desna in this case), so this is not something that happens often enough to justify always evil races being playable in most normal campaigns.

[Zaltys]

If it sells, good for them.

Personally, I don't have any interest in almost-human races, and that includes genasi and drow.

Won't be buying any racial DLCs, unless it's something like ratfolk. (Who are more civilized in Pathfinder than in most other settings, and would work fine in the campaign).

[nym_moondown]

I'ld like to have drows, tieflings, and genasis, in that order. Btw I would/will buy every extra content, and I'll test/play it in the future.