Improved Initiative / Spell Penetration / Combat Casting / Channeling

[endarken]

Hi everyone - I have gone through the online wikis and tried to answer this myself, but it is still a bit confusing. I have also read guides from people and sometimes what they are suggesting just makes 0 sense whatsoever so I think perhaps they do not understand the ruleset either.

1) Improved Initiative & Initiative Checks: Does this really help that much? I see some people saying that they use it on every character in their party, whereas others neglect it entirely. If you do neglect to use it, I would assume that really only casters should be needing it so they get their spells out first? The tooltip says that dexterity increases the initiatve check, so I would imagine a bard for instance would be able to cast first anyways due to having +dex.

2) Spell Penetration: I understand that with Spell Focus, I increase the Difficulty Check that my spells have when a NPC or monster tries to resist them. That is totally clear. What then, does spell penetration do? How does spell resistance and damage resistance fit into the equation?

3) Combat Casting & Channeling: When a caster casts a spell in melee range, it provokes an attack of opportunity if you do not pass the save check. Does this also apply to channel positive energy? I see so many posts from "melee" cleric guides saying get extra channeling etc but then their Wisdom is extremely low and they did not take combat casting... So does channel positive or negative energy not provoke an attack of opportunity?

Thank you!

[Dynellen]

Some monsters have spell resistance. A caster has to overcome this resistance or the spell does nothing, saving throws and spell effects are only determined after spell resistance is passed. Spell Penetration gives you a bonus to overcome spell resistance.

[HeLLfire]

1) Somewhat. It generally helps you to get in first shots\hits, which can then make a moderate encounter into a easy peasy one.

2) You roll spell penetration vs monsters with spell resistance (D20+Castlevel vs their SR) Fail and the spell does nothing to them. Penetration adds a +2 bonus to the roll.
Generally you'll only need this later in the game, and only if your build is gonna cast alot of spells directed at the enemies.

3) Channeling does not provoke any AOO. You should only consider combat casting for a cleric if you're planning on casting many spells in combat while in melee range of enemies.

[dfedwards2001]

Originally posted by endarken:

Hi everyone - I have gone through the online wikis and tried to answer this myself, but it is still a bit confusing. I have also read guides from people and sometimes what they are suggesting just makes 0 sense whatsoever so I think perhaps they do not understand the ruleset either.

1) Improved Initiative & Initiative Checks: Does this really help that much? I see some people saying that they use it on every character in their party, whereas others neglect it entirely. If you do neglect to use it, I would assume that really only casters should be needing it so they get their spells out first? The tooltip says that dexterity increases the initiatve check, so I would imagine a bard for instance would be able to cast first anyways due to having +dex.

2) Spell Penetration: I understand that with Spell Focus, I increase the Difficulty Check that my spells have when a NPC or monster tries to resist them. That is totally clear. What then, does spell penetration do? How does spell resistance and damage resistance fit into the equation?

3) Combat Casting & Channeling: When a caster casts a spell in melee range, it provokes an attack of opportunity if you do not pass the save check. Does this also apply to channel positive energy? I see so many posts from "melee" cleric guides saying get extra channeling etc but then their Wisdom is extremely low and they did not take combat casting... So does channel positive or negative energy not provoke an attack of opportunity?

Thank you!

1. Initiative checks apply dex bonuses yes. Some class features apply additional bonuses (for example inquisitors get wis bonuses to dex as well).

Improved initiative gives you an additional +4 bonus.

Having a higher initiative is seldom bad but its best for characters who really want to get their standard actions off first. This applies most often to casters/buffers. For example, if you have one character who regularly applies the haste spell having that character with a higher initiative means he has a better chance of buffing your other characters before they act.

2. As above. Spell penetration only helps to pierce spell resistance it doesn't affect the DC of any spells. If an enemy has no spell resistance then spell penetration does nothing. Thus you can basically ignore spell penetration til you hit lvl 10 or so. It becomes increasingly important as you go higher.

3. The way its done in game (which is a bit different than PnP) is that you automatically make a concentration check when you cast a spell while in melee range. If you pass the check the spell goes of as normal. If you fail the check the spell still goes off but you provoke an AOO from any enemies in reach.

Combat casting gives you +4 to these kind of concentration checks.

As to channel energy, it should not (according to PnP rules) require a concentration check or provoke an AOO because its a supernatural ability. BUT certain people do seem to have reported that channeling does provoke an AOO. Assuming this is true (I haven't witnessed it myself) then it is probably a bug they will fix at some point.

[Drake]

Channel energy is not a spell, it's a supernatural/special ability. So spell feats don't work on channel abilities.

[Dusty_Monk]

I took improved initiative on Valerie so that she can fight defensively before she gets attacked as the dodge bonus only gets applied after she has attacked. TBH I usually would rather she do something other than attack in the first round (e.g. Dazzling display) but this game requires she try to hit something to get the fighting defensively buff.

[HeLLfire]

Don't forget you can charge out of combat. While i haven't actually checked the combat log, i would assume that she, and anyone in that charge would not be flat footed.

[1ttffsse]

Spell Penetration is the most useful and probably a must on a caster.
Combat casting is not that big a deal if you stay ranged.
Improved Initiative is useful and nice to have but you may be feat-starved...I take it as a dragon disciple "bonus" feat though.

Anyways Spell focus in the school you want to cast most spells in is the most important one.

[Brian Sirith]

Chanelling does not provoke AoO. But -a bit off topic- I wouldn't get extra channels if you're thinking about it. They heal low -even with high wisdom- and usually about 6-7 are enough. I have 9 on my main cleric and 13 on Tristian, with no feats added (I think).

[OnlyOffensive]

pick spell penetration around level 8, good enough. So far at level 8 i encountered couple SR enemies. Tenderbogs in witch hut location ( have pretty low SR, dont really need penetration ) and some crazy dimensional cat that has high SR and penetration would actually help me there.

Combat casting must have for all kind of casters who cast in melee range of enemies, probably can do without on classic ranged casters, just maintain good position. Channeling doesnt provoke aops

[OnlyOffensive]

Originally posted by 1ttffsse:

Spell Penetration is the most useful and probably a must on a caster.

It's definetely FAR from most usefull, since creatures with actual SR are few. But feat definetely counts in fights against them. Its absolutely useless untill levels 8-10 and even after you wont encounter them too often.

[Teao]

I got init feat for Valerie cause I really want her to be able to charge into the middle of all the foes and get their attention

[Andante]

improve initiative imo is a must for your tank, it lowers the amount of time your tank is flat footed during engagement.

Getting caught flat footed on your tank for too long = dead tank in 1 round.

[corisai]

Originally posted by Andante:

improve initiative imo is a must for your tank, it lowers the amount of time your tank is flat footed during engagement.

Getting caught flat footed on your tank for too long = dead tank in 1 round.

Some tanks (like default Valery) will get Uncanny Dodge.

[Gogopher]

it all depends...

1-giving a toon with a 12 dex imp int wont do much...u wont really notice it but it will allow u to win init more (duh) but not enough to do it every time...hitting an inq or duelist or mage with a hare familiar (or all the above) will basically mean u win almost everytime...its a +4 buff on a d20 roll meaning u up'd ur chances from an average of 11 to an average roll of 15....with an inq (say 14dex 18wis) u go from a 17 average to a 21...

2-spell pen is something i dont often take...its a bonus feat thing for me...+2 just doesnt have that much umph when compared to other feats (though if i have free space ill pick it up)

3-combat casting is a must have...stacking as much concentration check buffs means u can have ur clerics melee and still chuck heals...or ur mages still throw spells in the face of getting mobbed....so CC and teamwork feats are almost a must for any toon that will be a frontline combatant and want to throw spells

[corisai]

Originally posted by Gogopher:

3-combat casting is a must have...stacking as much concentration check buffs means u can have ur clerics melee and still chuck heals

Healing in a combat useless (you have pots and wasting cleric time for anything but Heal is ridiculous). Plus you can bear some Reach rods in case of emergency.

But, sometimes, it's worth to cast offensive spells by clerics in combat.